Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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mate i think you should go away and think about it, this is pointless
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SVM 286
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quote:
Originally posted by Jules S
quote:
Originally posted by SVM 286
Groan.
Its fcuking simple. The plane has jet engines. Thrust is developed through the surrounding air. The conveyor belt has no influence on the air.
The plane moves forward, it takes off.
Honestly, its not all that difficult to grasp is it?
There's no call for that kind of response Jules.
I've never been rude to you have I.
In Brad's example, the belt is contra-rotating and MATCHES the craft's speed in reverse, thus negating any forward progress.
If the craft were on a tarmac airstrip and you were able to drag the airstrip backwards as the plane moved forwards, it would remain in the same location and any potential lift would be negated as the plane had been unable to achieve any forward momentum in air.
That seems fairly straight forward.
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J da Silva
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Registered: 10th Apr 03
Location: The FACTory
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quote:
Originally posted by LiVe LeE
I thought plane wheels were not driven?
never said they were - i said that the forward momentum and thrust is transmitted through the wheels when the plane si on the ground
Yes you did, you've now edited the said post after noticing your poor use of words. 
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Jizinho Silva 10
I thought plane wheels were not driven?
they are not, that is why the plane will take off, this is what these people need to understand
ONE THE GROUND THEY MAY ASWELL BE DRIVEN. You are not taking into account the weight of the plane and gravity. This would make any forward motion of the plane (thrust from jet engines) directly linked to the movement of the wheels.
If their was no weight or gravity then yeah they could free wheel all they like and the jet thrust would propel the plane forward...but there is!!
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RichR
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Registered: 17th Oct 01
Location: Waterhouses, Staffordshire
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once the plane takes off - its a completely different condition; but when on the ground the wheels translate the forward movement
why do the wheels have brakes?
because by slowing down the wheel - you slow down the plane! - the two have a direct correlation with each other
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J da Silva
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Registered: 10th Apr 03
Location: The FACTory
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quote:
Originally posted by LiVe LeE
shut the fuck up - I'm not saying the wheels are driven - I'm saying that the forces of propulsion are transmitted through the wheels to the groundplane!
Don't get ratty because your heated on this debate, maturity is needed here and I thought you were of that calibre.
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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yes you are directly affecting the ground to wheel force then by applying the brakes, whilst the wheels are freewheeling there is very little ground to plane force being applied
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SVM 286
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Registered: 13th Feb 05
Location: pain
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quote:
Originally posted by LiVe LeE
I've just assumed 500 tonnes for calculation - but need to double check!
68 tonnes doesnt seem enough
Lee, I think the New Airbus (the biggun) is about 500 (poss 550) tons (or Tonnes) fully laiden.
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Cybermonkey
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Registered: 22nd Sep 02
Location: Sydney, Australia
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quote:
Originally posted by LiVe LeE
quote:
Originally posted by Cybermonkey
about 150,000lbs lee
must be more than that - that equates to 68.2 tonnes - that cant be heavy enough
737-400
Standard version operating empty 34,564kg (76,200lb), max takeoff 62,820kg (138,500lb). High gross weight operating empty 34,827kg (76,780lb), max takeoff 68,040kg (150,000lb).
cool pic...
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0913166/L/
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Jules S
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Registered: 24th Dec 03
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Why can't you lot see this? 
I'll say again.
A scale model plane with no engines is on a conveyor belt that matches its speed.
If you (the engines) want to push the thing backwards, forwards side ways you can, because you (like the jet engines) have no material connection or relationship with the conveyor belt.
Will the conveyor belt stop you extending you arms forwards?
^^^^ if you dont get it after that explanation you need help 
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RichR
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Registered: 17th Oct 01
Location: Waterhouses, Staffordshire
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they're not freewheeling - theyre in contact with the ground and the transmission of thrust provides the forward momentum!
Jizinho Silva 10 I havnt edited any of the posts - your misinterpreting my comments to prove a point that is flawed
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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im glad this thread took place, its picked out the immature idiots unable to argue without descending into personal insults
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J da Silva
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Registered: 10th Apr 03
Location: The FACTory
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quote:
Originally posted by LiVe LeE
they're not freewheeling - theyre in contact with the ground and the transmission of thrust provides the forward momentum!
Jizinho Silva 10 I havnt edited any of the posts - your misinterpreting my comments to prove a point that is flawed
I don't really have an opinion, I'm reading everyone elses to try and learn something, my first post was sarcarsm
Why do people get so narky when something/someone doesn't go their way?
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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Ok, HERE ME NOW
the conveyor belt is rotating at say 50mph in the oposite direction.
if the plane was just sat with thrust idling it could quite happily sit then on the spot with its wheels rolling round and round underneath.
now think what would happen if you increased thrust the plane would start to move forwards.
so in this example the coneyor belt would start to rotate faster, so the wheels on the plane start to roll round and round faster, as the wheels are no way related to the jets on the plane this has no bearing on the thrust being applied forwards
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3CorsaMeal
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Registered: 11th Apr 02
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if this chappy was going flat out, he would be still
and if you pushed the rear end, it would move off the rolling road.
the planes engine is forcing air back using the weight of plane to counteract its force, similar to a person stood on solid ground and pushing
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Cybermonkey
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Registered: 22nd Sep 02
Location: Sydney, Australia
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quote:
Originally posted by Jizinho Silva 10
quote:
Originally posted by LiVe LeE
they're not freewheeling - theyre in contact with the ground and the transmission of thrust provides the forward momentum!
Jizinho Silva 10 I havnt edited any of the posts - your misinterpreting my comments to prove a point that is flawed
I don't really have an opinion, I'm reading everyone elses to try and learn something, my first post was sarcarsm
Why do people get so narky when something/someone doesn't go their way?
Joff?
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Cosmo
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
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quote:
Originally posted by Jules S
Why can't you lot see this?
I'll say again.
A scale model plane with no engines is on a conveyor belt that matches its speed.
If you (the engines) want to push the thing backwards, forwards side ways you can, because you (like the jet engines) have no material connection or relationship with the conveyor belt.
Will the conveyor belt stop you extending you arms forwards?
^^^^ if you dont get it after that explanation you need help
all these examples are flawed as your not taking into acccount all the factors.
If you push it forwards (acting as the jet would) then the weight of the plane and gravity would force the wheels to move faster, if this happens the conveyor will move faster. You still want to move it forward to you push it harder but once again due to the weight of the plane and gravity the wheels must rotate faster causing the conveyor to move faster, it'll always happen and the plane wont move.
If you forget the weight of the plane and gravity then their is no connection between the wheels and the conveyor..but that isnt reality.
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J da Silva
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Registered: 10th Apr 03
Location: The FACTory
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quote:
Originally posted by Sxi04
im glad this thread took place, its picked out the immature idiots unable to argue without descending into personal insults
You do tend to find out peoples real personas when you get debating with them, especially the people who try and force opinions on others.
I'm one of these people where if I'm wrong, I feel no shame in admitting it, aslong as people show me the right path in the end.
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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yes there would be limited force pushing the plane backwards cosmo, but the jets force would be far more and would overcome this
[Edited on 24-05-2006 by Steve]
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RichR
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Registered: 17th Oct 01
Location: Waterhouses, Staffordshire
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No - your example actually helps to prove why you are wrong Steve - as the wheels are attached to the plane! and the conveyor moves faster to counteract the increase in thrust - the forces will return to a state of equilibrium and there will not be forward momentum
thrust = increase in velocity of advance
increase in Velocity of advance = increase in conveyor speed
increase in conveyor speed = equilibrium
equilibrium = no forward momentum
[Edited on 24-05-2006 by LiVe LeE]
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Cosmo
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Ok, HERE ME NOW
the conveyor belt is rotating at say 50mph in the oposite direction.
if the plane was just sat with thrust idling it could quite happily sit then on the spot with its wheels rolling round and round underneath.
now think what would happen if you increased thrust the plane would start to move forwards.
so in this example the coneyor belt would start to rotate faster, so the wheels on the plane start to roll round and round faster, as the wheels are no way related to the jets on the plane this has no bearing on the thrust being applied forwards
so their is no weight or gravity pushing the plane to the ground and causing friction between the conveyor and wheels?
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
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yes a small force pushing the plane backwards, like when you have the toy car and pull the paper it will roll back, but it only takes a very small force to overcome this, and the force needed to push it foprwards would be very very very slightly more than if the toy car was on solid surface
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Cosmo
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
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quote:
Originally posted by 3CorsaMeal
if this chappy was going flat out, he would be still
and if you pushed the rear end, it would move off the rolling road.
the planes engine is forcing air back using the weight of plane to counteract its force, similar to a person stood on solid ground and pushing
now your talking of a set size conveyor belt to be 'pushed off' it.
In your example, would the wheels move faster if you pushed the quad? Obviously faster, as would have to so it can get off the rolling road. So if the rolling road wasnt ending, and you pushed it, the wheels would move faster and therefore the conveyor speed up to counteract the movement.
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3CorsaMeal
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Registered: 11th Apr 02
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go to a service station cafe, attach a rocket firework to a to car, lay it down on the roller system that u slide dining tray along.
does it hit the skanky woman thats at the checkout?
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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this is ike trying to educate pork
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