Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
They should, £600m+ of debt is not something you can ignore tbh 
I'd be more more concerned about your own team. This is going on for you 5th year without a trophy, you have been taken over by sqaubbling Yanks, you splashed out big on Torres and Mascherano, one of which wants away, and the other will become restless before long. Especially with Europes elite keeping tabs. Then theres your dropping out of the Champions League, a lot money lost there, and you will probably have a similar fate in the Europa League, we all know some random team will win it. Your current league position is worrying, if you fail to finish top 4 this year you're in trouble of keeping on to certain players. I havn't even touched on your lack of strength in depth either.
Ah right, well its all rosey at United.
You get £80m in the summer for your star player and decide to replace him by spending £17m on an over priced Wigan player, and by getting superstar Owen. Of course the money is there to spend though and hasnt been paid off the debt, but Fergie has suddenly become shy of spending (strange when he thinks £30m+ on Berbatov was good value).
Your debts keep spiralling where as your income doesnt. Revenue last year was only £20m less than this year - and thats including the £80m you got for Ronaldo - so would of been £60m DOWN. And thats before you take out the lost commercial value for no longer having the most popular footballer on the planet playing for you.
Its OK though, as burying your head in the sand and ignore the fact the debt keeps rolling up year on year with ridiculous PIK loans is fine.
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Nath
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quote:
Originally posted by strick206
quote:
Originally posted by Ojc
I would say United have got worse this season than Liverpool.
And that is exactly why you're southern
Clueless
Woah woah woah 
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Nath
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Cosmo, do you really believe United don't have a contingency for their finances? Atter all they probably have some of the best 'money men' in the World. You paint a doom and gloom picture, but surely they must know what they're doing? Or what they will do.
Genuine question btw. Not fishing etc...
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by strick206
quote:
Originally posted by Ojc
I would say United have got worse this season than Liverpool.
And that is exactly why you're southern
Clueless
You've just insulted 50% of Uniteds fanbase.
Say something about foreigners and lets see if we can make it another 45%.
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Ojc
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I'm a dirty stinking Jew if anything.
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Nath
Cosmo, do you really believe United don't have a contingency for their finances? Atter all they probably have some of the best 'money men' in the World. You paint a doom and gloom picture, but surely they must know what they're doing? Or what they will do.
Genuine question btw. Not fishing etc...
Do you not think all these massive companies that have gone tits up in the last 3yrs didnt have some of the best money men in the world advising them? Of course they did.
Fact is United's owners would of been banking on their value sky rocketing, so much so they could refinance in the future and hopefully pay down the loans - thats basically how a leveraged buyout like this works - its how the Americans are buying us. Difference for us is our initial cost was a lot lower, and we had a lot more head room above us to improve (as United were already ran very well commercially). Thats why our debt has gone down.
Uniteds value hasnt sky rocketed though, it will of gone up naturally as all other clubs would of done, but the fact their revenue has basically gone down (Ronaldo is a one off payment and not something they can expect every year unless they start selling big names as common place) is a massive hit to them.
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strick206
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Cosmo i would think liverpool are in far more danger than united are
Clueless manager you can't sack, 3 players worthy of playing for top 4 clubs, one of which wants to leave, the other is getting on, and your best one of all is injury prone and will want to leave if you finish outside top 4
Arsing around trying to start the build on this stadium, no money to do so, no money to spend on players to improve the squid.
In a shocking stadium with low income from said stadium
People in glass houses.... yada yada
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Nath
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Correct me if I'm wrong but most of the massive companies in recent times were undone by a single person on the take. Or by a calamitous error.
So when are United going to go bust then?
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Nath
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quote:
Originally posted by strick206
People in glass houses.... yada yada
Is what I also think. Deflecting the attention from Liverpool.
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strick206
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
Fact is United's owners would of been banking on their value sky rocketing, so much so they could refinance in the future and hopefully pay down the loans - thats basically how a leveraged buyout like this works - its how the Americans are buying us. Difference for us is our initial cost was a lot lower, and we had a lot more head room above us to improve (as United were already ran very well commercially). Thats why our debt has gone down.
You have no idea how they planned to make the money back on us. Neither do i. I find it hard to believe most of your information on completely private stuff, after all you only sell dresses and aren't a tycoon like many people around
One main difference is united are still in the top 4, and most likely will continue to be, and with the club being so big, someone will buy us out if we got into loads of trouble. Or shares etc
These bonds to raise 500million will help them as well. Personally i would prefer them to leave and sell us back to the fans and run as a PLC again, much better and much safer
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Marc
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
£17m on an over priced Wigan player
Around the same price as Anderson, who I am pretty sure most on here, yourself including rate as a good player. Valencia has scored 7 goals so far this season, already more than Ronaldo's first season with us. I'm not saying Valencia is going to emulate Ronaldo but he can only get better. Hes already surpassed his Wigan tally due to playing with better players. 15 goals a season will be achievable I reckon, which would be acceptable for a winger.
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
and by getting superstar Owen.
This will always be a sour point with you! Even if you say it isn't! Hes going to be a flop with us due to Berbatov. Owen could quite easily have played in so many more games this season, hes already our second leading goal scorer, quite a few come off the bench. Due to the money wasted on Berbatoss Fergie is being stubburn. Owen won't make the World Cup. More likely to win a trophy before Liverpool however!
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
(strange when he thinks £30m+ on Berbatov was good value).
Agreed, he has been a waste of money, flair but no effort or passion. We paid around £15m too much for him.
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
Your debts keep spiralling where as your income doesnt. Revenue last year was only £20m less than this year - and thats including the £80m you got for Ronaldo - so would of been £60m DOWN. And thats before you take out the lost commercial value for no longer having the most popular footballer on the planet playing for you.
When it starts to really affect things on pitch I'll take notice.
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
Its OK though, as burying your head in the sand and ignore the fact the debt keeps rolling up year on year with ridiculous PIK loans is fine.
When it starts to really affect things on pitch I'll take notice.
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by strick206
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
Fact is United's owners would of been banking on their value sky rocketing, so much so they could refinance in the future and hopefully pay down the loans - thats basically how a leveraged buyout like this works - its how the Americans are buying us. Difference for us is our initial cost was a lot lower, and we had a lot more head room above us to improve (as United were already ran very well commercially). Thats why our debt has gone down.
You have no idea how they planned to make the money back on us. Neither do i. I find it hard to believe most of your information on completely private stuff, after all you only sell dresses and aren't a tycoon like many people around
Its called a leveraged buyout, go and look it up and educate yourself on it - the way you make money through leveraged buyouts is to increase the value of the club. You increase the value by either increase revenues (whilst lowering costs), or increasing value of existing assets.
Its not a big hidden idea, its standard business practice, a high risk one for the company, but low risk to the owners as they ut up little of their own money.
And im hardly trying to deflect off Liverpool when I even mentioned above that this is exactly what we have done - and we are paying the price for it. G&H are attempting to increase our value by expanding our commercial arm (something they have done well with tbh), but as said our commercial side was a joke so had loads of room to improve on. United's however was already up there as the best in the world.
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
Your debts keep spiralling where as your income doesnt. Revenue last year was only £20m less than this year - and thats including the £80m you got for Ronaldo - so would of been £60m DOWN. And thats before you take out the lost commercial value for no longer having the most popular footballer on the planet playing for you.
When it starts to really affect things on pitch I'll take notice.
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
Its OK though, as burying your head in the sand and ignore the fact the debt keeps rolling up year on year with ridiculous PIK loans is fine.
When it starts to really affect things on pitch I'll take notice.
Correct me if I am wrong, but after the brum game you were slating Fergie (I even think you mentioned starting to question him) because he hasnt spent money on a forward to replace Roanldos goals.
You havent spent on one as you dont have the money to do so.
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strick206
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End of the day you're making out like united will be bust and extinct in a couple of years. I think you know that can't happen, someone will come in for a club as big as us, and the fan base etc.
Our revenues are stable, something which liverpools certainly arent with the loss of CL money and prem finish money if things stay the same. Which could cause even more problems. I wouldnt be at all suprised if the stadium gets put back again
Our revenue may not be increasing rapidly, but it is much more stable than liverpools imo
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Tom
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Can I just say, neither liverpool nor united are in a great position, they both have financial 'issues' so i'm not going to say one is in a worse position that the other. It's also clear to me that both clubs are in a similar position when compared with real madrid, man city, even chelsea's backing in the transfer market. Please feel free to reply and tell me ferguson 'can't see any value in the market right now' (maybe there are no players of 'Berbatoss' quality on the market for £30m at the moment).
I find it funny though that some of the united fans call benitez clueless in a topic of this nature, surely even as an outsider looking in (who isn't led by what clueless pundits feed you), you can see the constraints he is working within for those 2 monkeys at the helm? I cba writing out a whole dossier on his plus points because you wouldn't bother to read it.
Oh and PMSL at your lots degrading nickname for one of your most expensive players Oh and for the record marco, anderson isn't worth close to £17m imo, same with valencia (who wasn't 18 when he joined you lot and also had experience in the EPL, and in spain!).
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Nath
Correct me if I'm wrong but most of the massive companies in recent times were undone by a single person on the take. Or by a calamitous error.
So when are United going to go bust then?
Of course some have been done by individuals, but hundreds of big companies have gone tits up in these recent times due to having huge loans, not being able to pay/refinance these as they have been unable to grow revenue as they expected and planned pre-recession.
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strick206
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
You havent spent on one as you dont have the money to do so.
I do think we have money to buy one, but who is available atm. Very few people
And i think after real madrid this summer and city most likely this summer, the transfer market will be ridiculous and every top player will be 50million plus. I dont think fergie wants to spend that on someone thats worth 30million
The berbatov situation, he probably was a 30million forward. but unfortunately at us he isn't, doesn't appear to fit in and is massively low on confidence. It doesnt help when the guy who he is supposed to be playing off is rooney who is never a striker in a million years
Berbatov would be miles better with a top striker ahead of him imo. Rooney is more of a midfielder than a striker
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by strick206
End of the day you're making out like united will be bust and extinct in a couple of years. I think you know that can't happen, someone will come in for a club as big as us, and the fan base etc.
Our revenues are stable, something which liverpools certainly arent with the loss of CL money and prem finish money if things stay the same. Which could cause even more problems. I wouldnt be at all suprised if the stadium gets put back again
Our revenue may not be increasing rapidly, but it is much more stable than liverpools imo
Ive not said once United will got bust, Ive not even indicated that is what I think will happen. You're the one who has figured all that in your own head.
I see you must of looked up what a leveraged buyout was, as you seem to of piped down about that issue.
And how exactly is our revenue unstable? Its been increasing massively in the last 2yrs, and this is before the 3 fold increase on our shirt sponsorship is included. Its before the massive decrease in spending. Its before the new shirt manufacturer sponsorship which is up at the end of this year. Its before the new betting sponsor which has just been done. Its before the 7 or 8 'secondary' sponsors we've just got deals with which we've never had before.
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by strick206
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
You havent spent on one as you dont have the money to do so.
I do think we have money to buy one, but who is available atm. Very few people
And i think after real madrid this summer and city most likely this summer, the transfer market will be ridiculous and every top player will be 50million plus. I dont think fergie wants to spend that on someone thats worth 30million
The berbatov situation, he probably was a 30million forward. but unfortunately at us he isn't, doesn't appear to fit in and is massively low on confidence. It doesnt help when the guy who he is supposed to be playing off is rooney who is never a striker in a million years
Berbatov would be miles better with a top striker ahead of him imo. Rooney is more of a midfielder than a striker
Berbatov was never a £30m player. He was a £20m player who Fergie paid £30m for.
And all signs show he has no money - didnt spend it in the summer when you needed it. Has said he isnt spending now. And he could of gone in for numerous players against the likes of Madrid - he is always going to have that excuse otherwise as will always be a club spending big, and always has been in the last 10yrs with Chavski and Madrid again before that.
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strick206
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom
Oh and PMSL at your lots degrading nickname for one of your most expensive players Oh and for the record marco, anderson isn't worth close to £17m imo, same with valencia (who wasn't 18 when he joined you lot and also had experience in the EPL, and in spain!).
Anderson should be playing every week. But he is not, his confidence is shot to pieces imo. When he plays with confidence he marks gerrard out of games, has done the same to fabregas a couple of times. He's a top quality prospect, just needs to play
Fletcher, anderson should be our centre midfield imo atm
Valencia played for wigan, a long ball team at best with very poor strikers and a completely different attitude to football than man united, he will take time to get right, and having already scored 7 this season is a massive achievement for someone who scored so little at wigan. He'll have a few assists too
Don't forget, he's only 24, has a long time ahead of him and has made a good impression, just needs to improve his final ball. Which is shocking atm at times
He also only played about 15 spanish games so hardly experience
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strick206
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
And all signs show he has no money - didnt spend it in the summer when you needed it. Has said he isnt spending now. And he could of gone in for numerous players against the likes of Madrid - he is always going to have that excuse otherwise as will always be a club spending big, and always has been in the last 10yrs with Chavski and Madrid again before that.
I haven't mentioned anything on the buy out because i have no idea how they planned to pay it back, i know what a leveraged buy-out is, but these people that bought united must have known how big we are and that there isn't a much room as there was liverpool etc to increase things
They surely would have other plans for paying back the money. After all, they are successful and own a few american sports teams
We put a bid in for benzema in the summer, we also offered 25million for tevez who turned it down. So we did show we had the money to sign players. We were just unsuccessful
And lets face it, how many top international players are ever going to be available in january. I can't really remember him doing many big deals in the middle of the season
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Cosmo
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I wonder how much Kuyt is worth then, as just in the PL he has scored 5 and set up 6, compared to Valencia's 5 and set up 2.
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by strick206
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
And all signs show he has no money - didnt spend it in the summer when you needed it. Has said he isnt spending now. And he could of gone in for numerous players against the likes of Madrid - he is always going to have that excuse otherwise as will always be a club spending big, and always has been in the last 10yrs with Chavski and Madrid again before that.
I haven't mentioned anything on the buy out because i have no idea how they planned to pay it back, i know what a leveraged buy-out is, but these people that bought united must have known how big we are and that there isn't a much room as there was liverpool etc to increase things
They surely would have other plans for paying back the money. After all, they are successful and own a few american sports teams
We put a bid in for benzema in the summer, we also offered 25million for tevez who turned it down. So we did show we had the money to sign players. We were just unsuccessful
And lets face it, how many top international players are ever going to be available in january. I can't really remember him doing many big deals in the middle of the season
You signed Tosic in Jan 
They obviously over estimated how much they could grow the revenues and cut costs. Its the only way to make money through a leveraged buyout, no two ways about it.
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strick206
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
I wonder how much Kuyt is worth then, as just in the PL he has scored 5 and set up 6, compared to Valencia's 5 and set up 2.
How many years experience playing the liverpool way?
Also kuyt should be scoring more, remember he was a striker he just flopped at it and his work rate is keeping him in a job in the PL
We knew what we was getting when we signed valencia, was never a goalscorer anywhere, we bought him as a winger who will chip in with a few, which is what he's doing. Unfortunately our bids on forwards didnt succeed because of one being a money grabbing tosser, and the other wanting to go to his childhood club
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strick206
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
You signed Tosic in Jan
Another for the future, but doesnt look like he's going to be good enough, i'm talking big name signings in jan, there are very few in the world in Jan not just united
Ahh i thought you may not mention money to spend when i mentioned the two bids we put in for players
[Edited on 11-01-2010 by strick206]
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