Dr Pepper
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Registered: 21st Sep 02
Location: oxford Drives Renault Clio RS200
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
Whatever you want to call it. Popular press. A lot of people on Facebook.
Mostly anti-Tory. ie. Torys are wrong, you need to borrow and spend. Lots of people are saying this.
Edit - including most politicians of all persuasions? Not heard many elected members wanting a crash.
[Edited on 10-04-2013 by Ian]
Well the Tories are wrong - unless you are one of the top 5% earners in the country That is the only group the Tory party are actually working in the interest of. That is what the Tory party is for -the only reason it exists. Its a pretty one dimensional political viewpoint to support or govern with. I would go as far as to say if you vote Tory and you are not one of the top 5% of earners in this country you are either stupid, ignorant or insane
There is no logical reason why anyone else in this country should go out and support The Tory party - unless you just dont really understand what they are ...which most people who vote for them do not. And voting Labour is not an alternative because the current Labour party is indistinguishable from the Tories. They are both a notch away from each other to the right of the spectrum. They dont really disagree over any proper issues ... they just fight over stuff like gay marriage, P.R, Votes for prisoners ect ect - their actual economic, social and foreign policies are basically the same.
Personally I dont vote for any of them - because it is completely pointless. Party Politics doesnt work, never has done and never will. I dont agree with the system, it isnt a democracy and I wouldnt want to put my name to any of them. The only aim of these parties is to make short term policies to win the next election - none of them are interested in long term policies that would work, but would not play well with the electorate. The policies are made by strategists at party HQ and everyone else in the party is sent out and told exactly what to say ...if you stray off message you either lose your safe seat or the whips send you off to the back benches. Basically you either shut up and support the election strategy, or you leave the party at the top level.
Blaming one side or the other is just plain silly, none of the parties are going to sort it out because it is beyond repair.
Expenses scandal is just a smoke screen by the way - its a story leaked to bury other real issues. The money we are talking about with these expenses is minuscule in the great scheme of things
Im not really left wing by the way - I just think the country should be run by a collection of experts in their field as a business for the good of the country as a whole .... I can not get my head around why we need these parties to support that always have to say the opposite of the other side. Its like something out of the dark ages. I hear the same tired, stale old arguments from each party on a daily basis and nothing really happens .... its just plain ridiculous to say "I am a Tory, I support the Tories and there fore they can do no wrong but everything Labour does is bad" and vice versa. Its just a stupid way to think. The world is too complicated to just have one view point and never change it even if it turns out what your doing is wrong, or that your viewpoint might not be correct for certain situations
The over riding thought of any Labour or Tory politician is not "what is the best thing to do for the country" .... the main concern is "what is the best thing to do to win the next election"
Until you remove that thought process nothing good will ever come from it - I couldn't really care less about expenses, its a non issue.
[Edited on 10-04-2013 by Dr Pepper]
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JonnyJ
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Registered: 23rd Sep 05
Location: Scotchland
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#goodpost
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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Is it really good?
To judge a party on some preconceived idea which is of limited factual merit?
I'm not in the top 5% and a lot of their stuff suits me, how does that work?
To also basically say democracy is a bad idea and is ineffective. Really?
Also you think Tory policy is only suitable for the top 5% wealthy but you want the country to be run by business experts? You don't think they're in it for the money no?
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Dr Pepper
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Registered: 21st Sep 02
Location: oxford Drives Renault Clio RS200
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
Is it really good?
To judge a party on some preconceived idea which is of limited factual merit?
I'm not in the top 5% and a lot of their stuff suits me, how does that work?
To also basically say democracy is a bad idea and is ineffective. Really?
Also you think Tory policy is only suitable for the top 5% wealthy but you want the country to be run by business experts? You don't think they're in it for the money no?
Read what I said again
I didn't say democracy is bad - I said we do not have democracy. Tony Blair went Into a war that even his own party did not support, he then resigned and an unelected leader in Gordon Brown took charge.... Then that government was again replaced by a conservative one that the majority did not vote for. That is not democracy.
I am not judging the Tory party by preconceived ideas- I am judging it by what it is. Of course some of their policies suit you, some of them suit me .... It does not change the fact that they are not in power to represent me and you...that is simply not the aim of the party, if you think it is then you are wrong.
It isn't me that had preconceived ideas of the parties .... It is the parties preconceived agendas that us the issue. Some liberal ideas are good, some left wing ideas are good, so are conservative ones .... You have to judge each scenario and problem on its causes and effects. The Tory party, or Labour Party do not do this.... There aim is make those who voted for them vote again, and to get a few of the other sides votes.
I also didn't say the country should be "run by business men".... I said it should be run by experts, as a business for the good of the country.Most new politicians are not experts, and have no background of management or leadership... Most of them are public relation and marketing experts ... Because that is what really counts in party politics
[Edited on 11-04-2013 by Dr Pepper]
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mwg
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Registered: 19th Feb 04
Location: South Lakes
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quote:
Originally posted by mwg
Does anyone know what the point of having the parliamentary debate about her is?
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
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Im upping Dr Peppers liberal status, to full on communist. He shall now be known as Kim Jong Pepper
Thanks
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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BTW anyone actually agreeing with Dr Peppers arguments needs to take a step back and realise they are not very good, lack depth and are simply written to sound sophisticated and good. Actually they are full of hipocrasy to what he normally posts and how he normally thinks.
He claims democracy doesn't work, and that he doesn't vote because there is lack of choice. Well lets take a look at countries that also believe democracy doesn't work, countries like North Korea, only in the news in recent weeks. They seem to be doing well for themselves in isolation and run in a non democratic way don't they? There are many other of similar ilk, Syria, Egypt, Libya, the list goes on.
He argues there is no choice, I agree with that, the ones we get to choose from are all pretty rubbish and much of a muchness, why is that? because anyone with any slightly radical, or outside of the centre view is immediately dismissed, victimised and rubbished, parties with more extreme views are not taken seriously because people like Dr Pepper label them as racists and the like, what are we left with? a load of mushy parties in the middle, so of course we have no choice, because too many people with his belief only let the middle parties get taken seriously. Give the more extreme parties a say, not everything they suggest is racist or socialist. They then may balance up the books in what comes out of parliament.
Let the country be run as like a business? for the good of the country, coming from the same man who says we should not leave Europe 
Democracy does work when done right, its not done right at the moment, our choices are limited to 4 or 5 people and parties that are selected for us, we need to go back to the days where communities can select who they want from everyone, not just from a list given to them.
Dr Pepper wants even less choice, he wants pre chosen "experts" to run the country, that sounds very much like a dictatorship to me.
[Edited on 11-04-2013 by Steve]
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
Not when Labour have been campaigning to spend their way out of a recession.
Not by giving MP's obscene amounts of money for a funeral the country doesn't want to pay for but is being forced to.
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3CorsaMeal
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Registered: 11th Apr 02
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Them & Us
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mwg
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Registered: 19th Feb 04
Location: South Lakes
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No one is answering my question, I'm being serious too 
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Dr Pepper
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Registered: 21st Sep 02
Location: oxford Drives Renault Clio RS200
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
BTW anyone actually agreeing with Dr Peppers arguments needs to take a step back and realise they are not very good, lack depth and are simply written to sound sophisticated and good. Actually they are full of hipocrasy to what he normally posts and how he normally thinks.
He claims democracy doesn't work, and that he doesn't vote because there is lack of choice. Well lets take a look at countries that also believe democracy doesn't work, countries like North Korea, only in the news in recent weeks. They seem to be doing well for themselves in isolation and run in a non democratic way don't they? There are many other of similar ilk, Syria, Egypt, Libya, the list goes on.
He argues there is no choice, I agree with that, the ones we get to choose from are all pretty rubbish and much of a muchness, why is that? because anyone with any slightly radical, or outside of the centre view is immediately dismissed, victimised and rubbished, parties with more extreme views are not taken seriously because people like Dr Pepper label them as racists and the like, what are we left with? a load of mushy parties in the middle, so of course we have no choice, because too many people with his belief only let the middle parties get taken seriously. Give the more extreme parties a say, not everything they suggest is racist or socialist. They then may balance up the books in what comes out of parliament.
Let the country be run as like a business? for the good of the country, coming from the same man who says we should not leave Europe
Democracy does work when done right, its not done right at the moment, our choices are limited to 4 or 5 people and parties that are selected for us, we need to go back to the days where communities can select who they want from everyone, not just from a list given to them.
Dr Pepper wants even less choice, he wants pre chosen "experts" to run the country, that sounds very much like a dictatorship to me.
[Edited on 11-04-2013 by Steve]
Im not going to be able to argue with you Steve because you are not even able to read and understand what I posted. I didnt say democracy doesnt work. I said our party politics doesnt work, and therefore we do not have democracy.
You use words which you clearly do not understand the meaning of. You band countries together which have no similarities. Your GCSE level view of the world does not make you an expert. Your ideas are not radical by the way lol they are just not thought out very well at all.
If you are going to talk with any knowledge about things like football or politics then you are going to have to get off corsasport and actually learn stuff. You also need to get out of this internet warrior habbit of reading a post - not understanding itm then making your own argument based on what you thought they had said.
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
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If you don't wish your internet persona to be brought into even more disrepute I wouldn't start bringing football into it 
[Edited on 11-04-2013 by Steve]
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Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
Im not going to be able to argue with you Steve because you are not even able to read and understand what I posted.
You make it sound like your replies are advanced politics, they're not; you're stating the obvious and attempting to impress (who you're trying to impress on a car forum is anyone's guess) by filling out paragraphs with meaningless waffle 
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Dr Pepper
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Registered: 21st Sep 02
Location: oxford Drives Renault Clio RS200
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quote:
Originally posted by Dom
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
Im not going to be able to argue with you Steve because you are not even able to read and understand what I posted.
You make it sound like your replies are advanced politics, they're not; you're stating the obvious and attempting to impress (who you're trying to impress on a car forum is anyone's guess) by filling out paragraphs with meaningless waffle
My posts or views are not advanced at all.... Which is why it's hard to work out why both Ian and Steve could not understand what I had said.
The rest of your post is a mixture of exaggeration and your own incorrect opinion of me ... So I will ignore it
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Nath
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Registered: 3rd Apr 02
Location: MK
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Just need Welly Wanger to post and this thread is complete.
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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Welly Wanger too busy talking to his mate who 'knew stuff' about the world ending last year.
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
he then resigned and an unelected leader in Gordon Brown took charge.... Then that government was again replaced by a conservative one that the majority did not vote for. That is not democracy.
But within the rules of the British system? I'm quite sure it was all legal.
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
Which is why it's hard to work out why both Ian and Steve could not understand what I had said.
Because taking democracy and therefore party politics to its logical conclusion, its possible for anyone who feels that way to introduce more choice in to the system.
You are correct if you're talking about this decade in isolation, but I don't believe that renders the whole implementation of it in this country undemocratic.
I also agree with Steve that the middle wing mush is a product of pressure to not say the wrong thing. That isn't me endorsing UKIP, that's me saying that if you have enough people towing a line which is sufficiently politically correct, that's going to impact upon how those parties need to present themselves.
If it was more acceptable to hold differing views then those parties who do so would do better - which is exactly what is happening with UKIP and which is why that particularly situation is actually good for the country. That also should agree with what you said about a lack of choice being a problem.
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Russ
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Registered: 14th Mar 04
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if people actually bothered to read up on UKIP rather than just assume they are a posh BNP they'd probably be in power.
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Russ
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Ian, you say labours idea of spending to get out of a recession doesnt work, well neither does taxing everyone, as the tories have proved, at current rates debt will be 50% higher than when this govt came to power.
It's been historically proven that reducing taxes increases growth.
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Russ
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Registered: 14th Mar 04
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Also, if the tax system was reformed, so that everybody paid a percentage of their earnings then less people would actively avoid paying.
how often do you hear, "i need to be careful i dont go into the 40k tax bracket" or similar.
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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I see how a few government funded places are run day to day on a small scale, if it's the same throughout the country and at all levels, which I suspect it is, I could sort the whole country out in a week, without cutting anything that would affect the public.
There would be quite a few people finding new jobs which actually had a requirement for them though instead of their whole purpose being to create work that they can appear to do.
Other than a rant, the point of that post was that any party are completely useless. They must know exactly what's going on and what's really eating up all the money, they just choose to procrastinate instead.
[Edited on 11-04-2013 by John]
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Russ
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i'll shut up now. not disagreeing with anybodies ideas, just putting forward my opinion.
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John
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Tax should just be a fixed percentage imo.
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Russ
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John, i think most people who work in a govt setting could agree theres money wasted. I see it on a daily basis and it boils my piss
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