taylorboosh
Member
Registered: 3rd Apr 07
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Lol laser level, theyre badges, if he hadnt posted up none of you would have noticed
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CORSA NUT
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Registered: 3rd Aug 01
Location: Wirral
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Kyle T
Premium Member
Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
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Bit of a disappointing update today! 
I tagged along to a Clipsport rolling road day at RS Tuning in Leeds. I was first up on the Dyno before they rigged it up for the FWD guys.
I was saying to Simon_16v on the way to Leeds this morning that I was convinced the car felt a bit slower. When I first picked it up from decat/mapping it felt like the fastest car ever... but then I had been driving a 1.2 Corsa for a few days prior!
Over the last few weeks, I've felt the car being a little lethargic but I subconsciously put it down to warmer weather and my "arse dyno" from just getting used to the feel of the car.
It came off the rollers after making 284.6bhp at the fly... down from 315bhp before christmas pre decat.
The Dyno technician said it was running "very lean for a Subaru" and the AFR graph certainly supports that.
As a reminder, the first two graphs are from December and the bottom three are from today:
TODAY:
Obviously disappointed, but it gives me something else to fix/work on - and at least it backs up the calibration of my arse-dyno 
Not only is the power down, AFR lean but my peak spool seems to be lagging by almost 500 RPM. Decat should have made it more responsive if anything
I've already spoken to my mapper, I'm thinking the issue is either with the map or the new fuel pump which was fitted. I've sent him the graphs and he's going to compare with the logs taken during the mapping session. Hopefully he's willing to work with me on this and not just fob me off with "probably a dodgy dyno".
It didn't help my mood when my mates standard Megane RS made 10bhp more than the book said it should  Just kidding, was a good day out and got to also see Specky's Corsa 
I was going to go to the "Northern Big One" Subaru meet/show tomorrow - but not sure if I can be arsed now. I'll see how I feel later tonight
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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BeetleGav
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Registered: 27th Jun 10
Location: lancashire, nelson
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Ouch that sounds gutting!
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chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
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RS Tunings rollers are nicknamed the rollers of broken dreams..if you take your car straight to another rollers you will immediately be up 10-20 bhp.
my car made 300bhp at rstuning but at courtenays it will be 320+
[Edited on 29-06-2013 by chris_uk]
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Kyle T
Premium Member
Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
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Fair point Chris, but in defense of their Dyno today there were a few standard cars making more power than expected so I'd guess it was over-reading if anything! That said, I don't know how accuracy varies between a FWD setup and AWD.
It's the boost curve and AFR which concerns me more than the peak power/torque. Surely they're easier to measure consistently as they're fairly "binary" measurements.
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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daymoon
Premium Member
Registered: 1st Aug 08
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
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Why did I not know about the RR day? Wanted to stick my car on! Please inform me of any other RR days I can tag along to next time please :Lol:
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taylorboosh
Member
Registered: 3rd Apr 07
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3.0d? Would take a custom rr for high power mate...
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Kyle T
Premium Member
Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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I've been out and cleaned the car, so I feel a bit better now. Couple of pics from earlier:
Specky's Corsa, Impreza with a Corsa C shell on top for anyone who's been living in a cave
About to get the bad news...
Cleaned, much better
I stole the location from Simon, so I guess I should include him too...
As for my potential problem, I'll wait for my mapper to get back to me and keep a few forum threads active to see what happens. New fuel pump is less than £100 so I don't mind ruling that out, but ideally I'd like to meet my mapper at a "neutral" dyno (ie not Scoobyclinic and not RS Tuning) and see what the score is.
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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Kyle T
Premium Member
Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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Done some driveway diagnostics today. There are a few issues which cause lean running, one of which is a post MAF leak resulting in unmetered air.
I warmed the car up and left idling on the drive. With my Android "Torque" app and ODB2 adaptor I could see my vacuum sat solid at 17 in/hg which suggests no leaks.
I gave my MAF a quick spray with MAF cleaner as it was blacked up a bit.
My torque app also gives me AFR based on the exhaust sensor but it's only a narrowband reading which I understand to be more of a "lean or rich" reading rather than granular and accurate such as the wideband used on the dyno.
It shows 14.8 at idle and I'll log it at cruise and also at WOT later today. It might be a useless measurement but my aim is 11-12 at WOT.
Another possible cause is dodgy fuel pump, but I've seen a few graphs of lean cars due to dodgy pump and they all seem to drastically lean off at high revs. Mine is just constantly lean which makes me think air or mapping rather than fuelling.
[Edited on 30-06-2013 by Kyle T]
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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taylorboosh
Member
Registered: 3rd Apr 07
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Gutted mate, hope you sort it
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Kyle T
Premium Member
Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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Spoke to my mapper this morning, to roughly quote him he said the graphs definitely don't look good and it looks like the ECU is pulling the timing due to either lean running or heatsoak (or both).
The heatsoak got me wondering, the fan at the RS Tuning dyno was pushed right up against the nose of the car. When I was on the Scoobyclinic Dyno the fan was quite a distance back from the car... I wonder if that's a TMIC tactic.
The AFR doesn't lie though I guess, unless it was configured wrong or calibrated badly or whatever.
He's going to meet me at Richard Henry auto's on Thursday afternoon, get it rigged back up with his wideband etc and take it out for a blast just to see where we're at. If it looks healthy on thursday, I'll get it down to another Dyno elsewhere and see what it looks like there.
He said he's got a few things to check which could cause my symptoms on thursday, so hopefully it's nothing major!
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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Kyle T
Premium Member
Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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Oh, and he also made a comment of "the RS Tuning Dyno setup is certainly different..."
I'm not sure exactly what that means, but it sounds like a dig to me
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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CORSA NUT
Member
Registered: 3rd Aug 01
Location: Wirral
User status: Offline
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Good luck with it Kyle sounds to me like the fuel pump but probably wrong....
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Kyle T
Premium Member
Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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Cheers NUT, it'll be a cheap fix if just the fuel pump provided running lean doesn't break something else!
Bring on Thursday...
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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Kyle T
Premium Member
Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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To take my mind off what may or may not be wrong with the running of my car, I fitted a few engine-bay tidy up bits tonight.
In the below kit are a selection of replacement stainless bolts, washers and nuts for fixings along with a battery bar and PTFE spacer kit for the coolant header tank, to move that hot coolant container away from the inlet manifold a bit.
First job was to label all the bits so I knew what I had. Like Lego, love it...
A couple of before shots, looks pretty tidy from a distance:
Bit minging up close though:
Battery was first up, before:
After:
Radiator brackets after (actual brackets need painting, job for the next weekend I'm oncall and hence home all weekend):
Header tank before:
Spacers fitted:
Long-range shot of the bay after all the changes:
Low light, pics getting blurrrrry:
Few bolts are still outstanding, so ordered some more M8 15mm's and some M6 25mms to finish off, pretty decent kit other than that.
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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Kyle T
Premium Member
Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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Off to see my mapper today, Mr Carr.
He's shown concern over the phone regarding the graphs from the dyno day but was confused as to why the car wasn't feeling rough to drive... he said it would be flat and possibly missfiring if the graphs were indeed accurate.
He initially plugged in and his software showed some kind of table which listed the "corrections" that the ECU had made since the last map.
The first table was knock correction, which was recording 0% correction since the map... good news.
Second one was AFR correction, the one we were expecting the ECU to have corrected and the corrections were all less than 1%, which is well within the parameters of atmospheric changes.
The software also had some kind of "health score" on a scale of 0 - 16 based on all the various corrections and pre-programmed thresholds, my score was 16... which is as good as it gets.
We then went out for a ride, I drove whilst Andrew logged the trip and compared all of the readings from the readings he took during the mapping session. Everything was bang on, and AFR worked out at around 11.4 under WOT - which is exactly where it should be, not the 12-12.5 that RSTuning said I was running.
After a few blasts up the commuter lane of the M606  we called it a day, car was running spot on.
He was quite sympathetic because I now have two conflicting pieces of information, and offered to monitor the car whilst doing a power run on his "local" Dyno which he does a lot of mapping on. It's Manchester way on though, so will time it with another excuse to venture West.
Oh, and he also wouldn't take any money off me despite me effectively wasting an hour of his time. Can't be fairer than that 
I've been driving off boost since the Dyno session due to concern, but I had a good blast home - car felt awesome. I'm convinced that my "it feels slower" was purely down to becoming used to the pull of it, as just a few days without boost has given me a honeymoon period back again.
Fun fun fun
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
User status: Offline
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interesting.
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Kyle T
Premium Member
Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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Indeed, seems I'm yet another "odd result" to add to the RSTuning portfolio...
My Mapper didn't put his finger on anything bad or wrong about RSTuning, but he referred to it as being in "a league of one"...
Anyway, got my last few stainless bolts today so swapped over the stragglers:
From:
To:
Along with a few others, just about there now in terms of the visible sore thumbs...
Just a few bits to paint when I get a quiet weekend.
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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daymoon
Premium Member
Registered: 1st Aug 08
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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M606
Good to hear the car was given a clean bill of health!
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M Sutton
Member
Registered: 11th Jan 03
Location: Northamptonshire
User status: Offline
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Glad its good news. Car just gets better with all the small details you keep adding 
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bigron1988
Member
Registered: 29th Aug 09
Location: Southport, Merseyside
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
interesting.
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VrsTurbo
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jun 10
User status: Offline
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If yours had that "big" issue on his dyno would his maps for other turbo cars not be safe and run massively lean?
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Kyle T
Premium Member
Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by VrsTurbo
If yours had that "big" issue on his dyno would his maps for other turbo cars not be safe and run massively lean?
I dunno, I don't think it's a flat case of the dyno is misreading by a factor of X. I talked through some possible scenario's with Mr Carr as we were driving around today and he said there were two scenario's, or a combination of the two which were likely:
1) Dyno equipment was misreading both the AFR and my peak power. Boost is also about 500rpm later on the graph than in reality too.
2) Conditions at the time of the run cause my car to run badly, despite it running fine on the road.
Possible causes for scenario one were incorrect configuration of the gearing, slippage on the rollers and the wideband sensor/reader either damaged, not calibrated properly or simple used incorrectly. He mentioned that o2 sensors can give off weak reading when cold, and my power run was the first of the session... The incorrect gearing config on the dyno computer would explain the late boost readings, and possibly skew the BHP graph I guess.
Possible conditions for scenario two are a severely heatsoaked TMIC or some dodgy fuel currently in the tank/system. As I said, I was first on the dyno so my car was still warm from the... spirited drive to the event, and had been sat idling for a fair while whilst they set the dyno up. The fan unit was placed flush up against the front of the dyno, and the bonnet was closed... it's possible that my TMIC wasn't getting any airflow and the ECU just shat itself. I always use 99ron fuel, so it's not like I had a dodgy tank in - but who knows if the pump was having issues or I kicked up some dirt in the tank... I dunno, seems unlikely.
There's every chance that another Impreza would run a perfectly accurate session under different circumstances, but I've been posting my "adventures" on a number of forums, and here are a few quotes gathered regarding this specific dyno:
quote:
RS Tunings rollers are nicknamed the rollers of broken dreams..if you take your car straight to another rollers you will immediately be up 10-20 bhp.
my car made 300bhp at rstuning but at courtenays it will be 320+
quote:
i wouldnt worry, mine did 320bhp at one dyno after remap, and then did 287 at rs tuning with the same worry too rich or too lean, cant remember which he said, got mapper to check it over after the map at the time, all spot on. everybody seemed to get low figures on the day other thean the standard cars , which didnt make sense, somethings not right with that dyno
quote:
Did you tell rs tuning who mapped car? As they don't like some mappers and will spout some to mock the map!
quote:
Lol I did tell you rst are dodgy feckers (as said on sn and that bit i quoted off duncans post) when it comes to rr as with one or two others.
They knew who mapped it just by plugging their stuff in, and was mocking it to drum some business out of you for a new map etc.
If you want to compare, take it to original dyno for better comparison.
I know a few lads went a while back inc tez and everyone was about 50hp down.
It's so easy for a dyno operator to change things
(In reference to the "few lads went a while back" quote above):
quote:
I remember that day,I went home in a bad mood with Brina 1 lol
I Like to keep an open mind, but "no smoke without fire" springs to mind.
[Edited on 04-07-2013 by Kyle T]
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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Steve
Premium Member
Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
User status: Offline
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So basically his rollers are ran honestly and ad accurate as possible but people don't like it because it conflicts with there pub figures so claim the rollers are broken or the guyis on one
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