Marc
Member
Registered: 11th Aug 02
Location: York
User status: Offline
|
I'd go to reserve games if it didn't mean the journey!
|
Danny P
Member
Registered: 20th Nov 02
Location: Cleckheaton, West Yorkshire
User status: Offline
|
Thing is, not many clubs could draw big crowds for a reserve game, I've only ever been to 1 reserve game down at Huddersfield (for Peter Jackson's last ever game for us) and the crowd was only around 2,000 then. Doubt they even get 100 for a normal reserve game., and we've played teams from higher leagues, and still nobody cares.
At places like Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea & Arsenal you might get a few thousand, but there aint gonna be a great demand for tickets, even less demand the further you go down the league, so this would mean yet more money coming in for the bigger teams, and making the gap even bigger than it already it is now.
|
Hammer
Member
Registered: 11th Feb 04
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Danny P
Also, there are plenty of young players who play in the Premiership, Rooney is a perfect example of this, didn't see him pissing about in the reserves did you?
You've highlighted the best English prospect in a generation, for ever Rooney there are a hundred others that fall by the way side.
You're also forgetting Smith held Rooney back as did Davie Moyes to a fair extent, he was in and out the Everton team and gradually given an hour and half an hour here and there. If he had been thrown into playing 40 games a season at 16 there would be no Wayne Rooney.
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
hence why having our reserve teams in the lower leagues would attract higher crowds and more money for these lower sides.
Especially if they were decent competitive matches as you could poss expect some tv revenue from them aswell.
|
Danny P
Member
Registered: 20th Nov 02
Location: Cleckheaton, West Yorkshire
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
hence why having our reserve teams in the lower leagues would attract higher crowds and more money for these lower sides.
No being funny here mate but there is more to football than the Premier League. Just becuase Liverpool are sending a "B" team to Huddersfield doesnt mean the ground will sell out, half the team will be players that have never been heard off, people aint going to pay just to see them. If Liverpool "B" were playing Huddersfield I doubt that the 4,000 tickets you would get would sell out either, so in reallity we (Huddersfield) wouldnt make any more money than if we were playing a normal team in our league. Your views seem to be biased towards the "big teams" in the Premiership helping out all the "little teams" We dont need your help, we run (or most teams) perfectly well as we are, you concentrate on your agenda, and we'll concentrate on ours.
One Club - One Team. Thats how its been since the league started, and thats how it should stay. There are too many people trying to mess about with football these days, its been ok for 100's of years, and it will be ok for another 100 years if people just leave it alone and stop trying "improve" it.
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Danny P
No being funny here mate but there is more to football than the Premier League. Just becuase Liverpool are sending a "B" team to Huddersfield doesnt mean the ground will sell out, half the team will be players that have never been heard off, people aint going to pay just to see them. If Liverpool "B" were playing Huddersfield I doubt that the 4,000 tickets you would get would sell out either, so in reallity we (Huddersfield) wouldnt make any more money than if we were playing a normal team in our league. Your views seem to be biased towards the "big teams" in the Premiership helping out all the "little teams" We dont need your help, we run (or most teams) perfectly well as we are, you concentrate on your agenda, and we'll concentrate on ours.
One Club - One Team. Thats how its been since the league started, and thats how it should stay. There are too many people trying to mess about with football these days, its been ok for 100's of years, and it will be ok for another 100 years if people just leave it alone and stop trying "improve" it.
the fact is the bigger teams have bigger support. If you think you wouldnt sell more tickets if we had a B team playing a competitive game then you must be on something. We'd also have the pulling power to get more TV revenue into the lower leagues, and distribute some wealth which you lot always moan about not getting.
And yes I am biased towards the larger clubs, mine is one of them, like you are towards smaller clubs. You may well say your doing well, and your club might be, but there are a lot of clubs who are running at a loss and could do with the money that this could bring in.
And lastly...I agree football is being messed with, doesnt need changing, etc. but if this is the case then I expect the same ones who are saying this should happen should also get off the bigger teams backs and say we arent bringing the 'English talen' through.
|
Danny P
Member
Registered: 20th Nov 02
Location: Cleckheaton, West Yorkshire
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
the fact is the bigger teams have bigger support. If you think you wouldnt sell more tickets if we had a B team playing a competitive game then you must be on something. We'd also have the pulling power to get more TV revenue into the lower leagues, and distribute some wealth which you lot always moan about not getting.
Sorry mate, but again i'll have disagree.
Im willing to bet if we played Liverpool, and everybody you knew you were only going to be playing your reserve team, then we wouldn't sell many more (if any tickets) that if we were playing a half decent team in our own league. If we drew you in the cup, and it Huddersfield Vs Liverpool, then it would be a different matter, and we'd sell out (as we did when we played you a few years ago) even though you might only play a few 1st teamers.
The fact that it would be classed as us playing Liverpool Reserves would only be like us playing them in a pre-season friendly, and, IMO wouldnt attract as much support.
As for saying you would generate more money via TV deals, come on, who really would watch a Reserve Fixture, apart from maybe people who supported the one of teams involed. I know I wouldn't waste my time watching Northampton Town vs Blackburn Reserves, and im guessing most people would agree with me there. ITV came in a few years back to cover League Football, and it packed in before the end of the first season becuase nobody watched it as 9/10 if you support a lower league club, you will be at the game, its just the way it is. Lower league clubs dont have 1,000 & 1,000's of fans worldwide/around the country who are interested in seeing the club play. They have local fans who support the club by going to games. The demand to see the team simply isn't there.
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Danny P
Im willing to bet if we played Liverpool, and everybody you knew you were only going to be playing your reserve team, then we wouldn't sell many more (if any tickets) that if we were playing a half decent team in our own league. If we drew you in the cup, and it Huddersfield Vs Liverpool, then it would be a different matter, and we'd sell out (as we did when we played you a few years ago) even though you might only play a few 1st teamers.
The fact that it would be classed as us playing Liverpool Reserves would only be like us playing them in a pre-season friendly, and, IMO wouldnt attract as much support.
No, I agree it would be nothing like the scale that you get when you draw a big team in the cup, Im certainly not saying you'd have 1000's upon 1000's wanting tickets. But if there was a team of good Liverpool youth players, maybe a few injured players who are coming back through then you would get an increase in the number of fans...certainly away fans going to your games.
quote:
As for saying you would generate more money via TV deals, come on, who really would watch a Reserve Fixture, apart from maybe people who supported the one of teams involed. I know I wouldn't waste my time watching Northampton Town vs Blackburn Reserves, and im guessing most people would agree with me there. ITV came in a few years back to cover League Football, and it packed in before the end of the first season becuase nobody watched it as 9/10 if you support a lower league club, you will be at the game, its just the way it is.
Again, you would find a lot of the fans of the bigger clubs would watch, to see their emerging talent that is coming through the ranks. Im not saying all big clubs would have this effect (as you mentioned someone like Blackburn certainly wouldnt) but teams like Man City, Spurs, Newcastle, the big four, etc. that all has massive support, would generate good viewing figures for a few games each a season. And that would bring money into the lower leagues.
quote:
Lower league clubs dont have 1,000 & 1,000's of fans worldwide/around the country who are interested in seeing the club play. They have local fans who support the club by going to games. The demand to see the team simply isn't there.
As above. It would be the support of the bigger clubs that would bring in extra revenue. Im not saying it wouyld be a massive increase to Premiership standard, but it would certainly be a noticable increase.
|
Marc
Member
Registered: 11th Aug 02
Location: York
User status: Offline
|
^
Good points.
|
Danny P
Member
Registered: 20th Nov 02
Location: Cleckheaton, West Yorkshire
User status: Offline
|
Agreed some good points, and a good little sensible debate.
I can see both side of the arguments, but I still think it would be an insult to the lower league teams to allow Premiership teams to have a "B" team playing in the same league as them, and the extra money that will be generated wouldn't be a great enough gain to warrant doing this IMO.
You say alot of fans of the big teams would attend these games and watch them on the TV, but im willing to bet if you polled them then the number wouldn't be that great. Is there any fans on here now that go to reserve games when they are playing? I doubt there would be much more intrest then there already is. If you were a Liverpool fan (and im only using Liverpool as you support them, im not picking on them or anything) and you wanted to go see the reserve's play, then you can go watch them already, and they will be probaly playing a better team with better players than if they played Huddersfield for example.
|
Nath
Member
Registered: 3rd Apr 02
Location: MK
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
quote:
Originally posted by Nath
The opposition is already good enough.
but we wouldnt be able to go up, so it makes little difference how good a team we are!
Because if we needed to win to stay up and Liverpool 'B' beat us i'd be fucking pissed off as you aren't even in the league for any other reason then to make yourselves better!
|
Nath
Member
Registered: 3rd Apr 02
Location: MK
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hammer
That seemed like a cry from a guy that has had a frustrated season supporting his team Nath 
Yes Hammer.
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Danny P
You say alot of fans of the big teams would attend these games and watch them on the TV, but im willing to bet if you polled them then the number wouldn't be that great. Is there any fans on here now that go to reserve games when they are playing? I doubt there would be much more intrest then there already is. If you were a Liverpool fan (and im only using Liverpool as you support them, im not picking on them or anything) and you wanted to go see the reserve's play, then you can go watch them already, and they will be probaly playing a better team with better players than if they played Huddersfield for example.
Yeah, I totally agreeabout the current numbers, etc. but thats mainly because they arent playing proper competitive matches. When the Liverpool reserves used to play at Southport's ground I used to go a fair amount, and got some good numbers turning out, but the games were more like soft friendlies than proper games. TBH though it is purely opinion that numbers would be good, going on from what Ive seen at our friendlies...certainly not based on any figures.
quote:
Agreed some good points, and a good little sensible debate.
I can see both side of the arguments, but I still think it would be an insult to the lower league teams to allow Premiership teams to have a "B" team playing in the same league as them, and the extra money that will be generated wouldn't be a great enough gain to warrant doing this IMO.
It is a nice change to see a good debate on here!!
And couldnt agree more about seeing both sides of the arguements. I think the best option woudl be to have a much more competitive reserve league...but its making the other clubs buy into that which isnt the easy job.
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nath
Because if we needed to win to stay up and Liverpool 'B' beat us i'd be fucking pissed off as you aren't even in the league for any other reason then to make yourselves better!
but we'd of also played the team that did go up instead of you, so it wouldnt make any difference as not like only your team would be playing us.
|
Robbo
Member
Registered: 6th Aug 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
Arsenal Ressies play at Underhill (Barnet) and barely get more than a few hundred...
|
Nath
Member
Registered: 3rd Apr 02
Location: MK
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
quote:
Originally posted by Nath
Because if we needed to win to stay up and Liverpool 'B' beat us i'd be fucking pissed off as you aren't even in the league for any other reason then to make yourselves better!
but we'd of also played the team that did go up instead of you, so it wouldnt make any difference as not like only your team would be playing us.
My answer is still NO! Why should you big boys be allowed to whack your reserves into the League? 92 teams is more than enough.
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nath
My answer is still NO! Why should you big boys be allowed to whack your reserves into the League? 92 teams is more than enough.
Because we need our players to get experience and your worth nothing more than to help us 
|
Robbo
Member
Registered: 6th Aug 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
|
Danny P
Member
Registered: 20th Nov 02
Location: Cleckheaton, West Yorkshire
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
It is a nice change to see a good debate on here!!
And couldnt agree more about seeing both sides of the arguements. I think the best option woudl be to have a much more competitive reserve league...but its making the other clubs buy into that which isnt the easy job.
Just need Topshot to come on now and say that Spurs Reserves would win the Championship and it will be a perfect thread
I agree with the a Reserve League being set up, that would be fine. I know there is one already but like you say its not the best, and is used mainly to get first team players back to full fitness (or it is at our club) than for emerging tallent to come through. Also you've got to remember though that some clubs dont have massive squads, and they wont want players getting injured playing reserve games just in case they are needed for first team action.
Its a hard area to call really, and one that would need a lot of thought if they were going to try and do something about it. I think Arsenal have got it about right, they have a good set of young lads (although granted they are all imported from god for-saken country in Africa when they are about 7) I dont know how they work it down there, but they must have some amazing academy coaches down there to get them up to speed.
Maybe the FA should invest some money in grass roots football to train young English lads up from an early age, maybe that would solve the problem of the lack of emerging English players. Im sure there must be loads of good young lads running around parks on a Sunday morning, but clubs aint intersested as they can pick up players from abroad cheaper. If the FA gave clubs money to take on English lads then things might improve, but that a different debate all together.
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
The FA's stance on it all was to persuade the bigger clubs (and all clubs to some extent) to build up their acadamies....ours cost £10m so the facilities are certainly there.
But as Rafa said, you develop these players upto the age of 17/18, and unless they are the next Gerrard, Rooney or Owen then they wont be breaking into the first team by then. So what do you do for the next few years...you have to send them away from these multi million pound facilities which you were encouraged to build to give them some half decent experience. So the experience is great, but you miss out on developing them for those years which can be crucial.
So the FA needs to sort something IMO. Its like they have done half the job with the acadamies but just not following things through fully. And it is damaging English football, because their are few exceptional English players coming through their prices are SKY high, so top clubs go abroad and get just as good and more experienced young players for cheaper....alla Arsenal.
The only way I can see the reserve league getting better is to limit the numbers a little. Prevent just throwing in some squad players who wont bother trying and make it more competitive between the younger players. Even if you say they have to run it like a totally seperate club, so if they are named in the main first team they cant play in the reserve, unless it for injury reasons - like I mentioned they do in Spain.
|
Robbo
Member
Registered: 6th Aug 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
Wenger maintains that the youth squads now contain 90% English lads but also that it has taken them that long to find decent talent
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Robbo
Wenger maintains that the youth squads now contain 90% English lads but also that it has taken them that long to find decent talent
yeah, Im not just saying you guys are buying foreign, as we are too, its just easier as an example as you probably have the best (older) youth team.
I think most acadamies will have mainly English players in their youth teams, but this is where the problem comes as what happens when they get to 18/19/20 and need a lot of experience and development. It seems all those players just end up going missing!
|
Danny P
Member
Registered: 20th Nov 02
Location: Cleckheaton, West Yorkshire
User status: Offline
|
Thats why they are loaned out to lower leagues clubs though, to get some match experience.
I cant see the difference in a player coming down to a lower league club and playing for them for a while, its only the same as that player playing for a "B" side in the same division.
Only difference is the training/coaching, which is the area of the game that needs to be looked at IMO.
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Danny P
Thats why they are loaned out to lower leagues clubs though, to get some match experience.
I cant see the difference in a player coming down to a lower league club and playing for them for a while, its only the same as that player playing for a "B" side in the same division.
Only difference is the training/coaching, which is the area of the game that needs to be looked at IMO.
that is a big difference though.
The facilities and quality of the staff for one would make a huge difference in how they develop. Not to mention the interests of the club (play owners want future development as their main focus, loan club will want performance right now as theirs).
Having them traina nd get expereince with their own club would be the perfect way, and IMO why we are seeing a lack of quality English players coming though from the top teams.
|
Marc
Member
Registered: 11th Aug 02
Location: York
User status: Offline
|
Peterbrough director:
"No-one would want to watch the reserve teams of any club - I don't care if they're Real Madrid, Juventus or Fray Bentos!
|
