Daimo B
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
I think the point VXR is missing is that torture is being used to make people confess because they dont have the evidence for a simple conviction so they could actually be torturing innocent people!
[Edited on 25-08-2009 by willay]
Missing????
Read the top of Page 3!!!!
[Edited on 25-08-2009 by VXR]
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Colin
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quote:
Originally posted by willay
I dont think any of the american torturing assisted with the arrests/busts of certain groups over here Colin, so I doubt we (people in london) have benefited. I'm all for stopping it, but not using illegal means (torturing)
A couple of the detainees are British born Muslims.
Where else should terror threats be caged up then and how should they be stripped of information?
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willay
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yes, and wasnt one of them detainees kept caged for 2-3 years and was completely innocent? 
[Edited on 25-08-2009 by willay]
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willay
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Where - whereever they want.
How - using legal means.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Colin
quote:
Originally posted by willay
I dont think any of the american torturing assisted with the arrests/busts of certain groups over here Colin, so I doubt we (people in london) have benefited. I'm all for stopping it, but not using illegal means (torturing)
A couple of the detainees are British born Muslims.
Where else should terror threats be caged up then and how should they be stripped of information?
What do you think they know? Not all terorsits are on terrorsport.com talking about each others attacks. They are isolated groups... more often than not one or two people who are planning an attack......they know very little about other terrorost acts most of the time. Al Quaeda is a myth- it doesnt exist in any structured way.
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Daimo B
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
You do this then you might win a war on terror. What has been going on at the bay WILL RESULT IN FUTURE TERRORIST ATTROCITIES.
You can flush as many muslim heads down a bog as you want but that wont stop terrorsits wanting to hurt western countries.
[Edited on 25-08-2009 by Dr Pepper]
I do also agree highly with that.
Some fanatics will try to kill innocent civillians just becuase Mr xyz is currently confined in a US prison.
Im not also ignorent to the US secrets and have petty and sh1tty a country it really is.
But I was just talking about
"is bog flushing someone really torture"?????????
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Colin
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
quote:
Originally posted by Colin
They wont be picking up afgan goat herders and sending them to Guantanamo Bay though will they. They will have bloody good reason to send them there. I would say you lot working in London should be thankful such a place exists or the bombings a few years back might have been larger and more frequent!!
Everyone's quick to slam the efforts being made to stop terrorism but take for granted the fact they can walk to work without being blown up. Which at the end of the day is what these extremists want to do.
Oh rubbish.. Its all self inflicted by our governments and then padded out with bullshit to keep us scared. Terrorism is the new controlling fear our governments used to inflict new and more controlling legislation upon the masses.
If we didnt interfere with other cultures there wouldnt be a problem.. Have you forgotten how the CIA ploughed millions if not billions into arming and training afgan's to fight the Russians during the cold war. Where do you think the taliban came from?
Do me a favour and educate yourself before you spurt more shit.
Ive got an education thanks!! 
Its not possible for UK/USA to stay one of the super powers without interfering with other cultures. So blame who you want the problems here now and must be dealt with.
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Daimo B
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quote:
Originally posted by willay
Where - whereever they want.
How - using legal means.
How can you legally extract information from a hardcore terrorist (possible) then following human rights guidelines?
Oh I say old chap, if we do you a fantastic 3 course meal, would one be willing to share information on where his allies are and any military bases you have?
If one so requires, Im sure we could chuck a bottle of champaigne in what what what....
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Colin
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quote:
Originally posted by willay
Where - whereever they want.
How - using legal means.
So what lock them up in an over crowded Brittish jail and give them Playstation and Sky TV & hope for the best? 
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willay
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Ask nicely and plough them with booze sounds good. or drugs? though that might be illegal.
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DaveyLC
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quote:
Originally posted by Colin
Where else should terror threats be caged up then and how should they be stripped of information?
You are also missing the point, WHO decides they are threats? They are only locked up there without trial and tortured because there is insufficient evidence so clearly its a farce! Some person or persons just decided someone is a threat because of something they have heard or been told, there will be no phsyical evidence which is WHY they torture them, but surely making someone admit to something they might have not even done is pointless?
Dont get me wrong I'm not a tree hugger by any means but I think everyone is due a fair trial! "Innocent until proven guilty", isnt that one of democracies most proudest achievements?
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willay
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quote:
Originally posted by Colin
quote:
Originally posted by willay
Where - whereever they want.
How - using legal means.
So what lock them up in an over crowded Brittish jail and give them Playstation and Sky TV & hope for the best?
Sorry when I say they I was refering to the law, not the prisoner themselfs.
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Colin
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
quote:
Originally posted by Colin
quote:
Originally posted by willay
I dont think any of the american torturing assisted with the arrests/busts of certain groups over here Colin, so I doubt we (people in london) have benefited. I'm all for stopping it, but not using illegal means (torturing)
A couple of the detainees are British born Muslims.
Where else should terror threats be caged up then and how should they be stripped of information?
What do you think they know? Not all terorsits are on terrorsport.com talking about each others attacks. They are isolated groups... more often than not one or two people who are planning an attack......they know very little about other terrorost acts most of the time. Al Quaeda is a myth- it doesnt exist in any structured way.
We'll they will know more than you or me will about terrorism so must be dealt with. If they didn't play with fire they wouldn't get burned!!
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Daimo B
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Exactly
You can't DO anything, so your never going to extract information.
Could you you imagine Hitler today if he was in Obamas position.
NEIN NEIN NEIN!!!!!
Those guys would already be missing their fingers and eyeballs. Germany had some REAL torture techniques.
Also, the problem I can see is, some people will fold straight away, some will take a little time, and some won't fold at all.
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Daimo B
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
"Innocent until proven guilty", isnt that one of democracies most proudest achievements?
The UK and America does not adopt this terminology anymore.
Your guilty until proven innocent these days. Fact.
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DaveyLC
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quote:
Originally posted by VXR
How can you legally extract information from a hardcore terrorist (possible) then following human rights guidelines?
You can't, if you havent got the evidence then you have to let them go.. You have to spend more money on monitoring and inteligence instead of water boarding and torture techniques.
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willay
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can't wait for the UK goverment to adopt America's way and start torturing us for not handing over passwords instead of putting us in jail for 3 years
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DaveyLC
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quote:
Originally posted by VXR
quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
"Innocent until proven guilty", isnt that one of democracies most proudest achievements?
The UK and America does not adopt this terminology anymore.
Your guilty until proven innocent these days. Fact.
Not true, that is called reversal of burden of proof and is an exception.
It might be true in the eyes of the media but in the eyes of the law you are innocent until proven guilty.
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Colin
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
quote:
Originally posted by Colin
Where else should terror threats be caged up then and how should they be stripped of information?
You are also missing the point, WHO decides they are threats? They are only locked up there without trial and tortured because there is insufficient evidence so clearly its a farce! Some person or persons just decided someone is a threat because of something they have heard or been told, there will be no phsyical evidence which is WHY they torture them, but surely making someone admit to something they might have not even done is pointless?
Dont get me wrong I'm not a tree hugger by any means but I think everyone is due a fair trial! "Innocent until proven guilty", isnt that one of democracies most proudest achievements?
People with higher knowledge & understanding than us decides who's a threat. We don't really have a clue what's going on behind what the Sun / GMTV lets us know!! I mean really what we see on TV is probably not even scratching the surface on the 'global terror' problems were faced with.
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DaveyLC
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quote:
Originally posted by Colin
People with higher knowledge & understanding than us decides who's a threat. We don't really have a clue what's going on behind what the Sun / GMTV lets us know!! I mean really what we see on TV is probably not even scratching the surface on the 'global terror' problems were faced with.
But what gives them the right? In as much sense as what gives the terrorists the right to decide you are an infidel and must be kiilled?
It happens here too you know, people are accused of things that they havent done, they might not get physically tortured but it can destroy them mentally.
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Daimo B
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
You can't, if you havent got the evidence then you have to let them go.. You have to spend more money on monitoring and inteligence instead of water boarding and torture techniques.
America and Intelligence are 2 words that should not be in the same sentance.
How can you monitor someone not in your country?
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Cosmo
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If its a matter of national security then I dont care by what means they get the information from the terrorists tbh.
They'd have no care about what they are going to do to the innocent people when they commit their terrorism, so neither should we when trying to stop it.
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Daimo B
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here here
Scarey clown has spoken.
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Colin
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They have the right to protect their land and the people who voted for them. There MUST be some form of control or it will turn into a free for all. People decide their fate with whatever they get caught up in. If you don't want to land in guantanamo then dont fuck about at terror training camps and make bombs. Like I said these people they are bringing in wont be goat herders!!
Yes sometimes people are wrongly accused but thats part of life, & goes back to my need of control point. If you say we have reason to believe, there is evidence to support but we cannot prove entirely what do you do for the better? Let them go....to possibly kill again?
The worlds a tough mean place, theres got to be some control!!
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DaveyLC
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quote:
Originally posted by VXR
quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
You can't, if you havent got the evidence then you have to let them go.. You have to spend more money on monitoring and inteligence instead of water boarding and torture techniques.
America and Intelligence are 2 words that should not be in the same sentance.
How can you monitor someone not in your country?
The same way they have done it for decades, spies and monitoring communications.. You do realise they use mobile phones and internet now they dont just wander around on camels and send smoke signals. 
And lets not forget the military have got satelites that can read the address on an evelope.
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