adiohead
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Registered: 28th Sep 01
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I'm gonna start an official government petition to make 'Loser' a protected professional title
For people like me and Doyle
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eckers90
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Registered: 22nd Apr 12
Location: birmingham
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quote:
Originally posted by nibnob21
I have over a year's workshop experience and I'll be starting my Masters year of a Mechanical Engineering degree in October at the University or Warwick, so not some arcs polytechnic. The degree is also accredited by the IMechE.
Not all students are useless and can't use a spanner, so to the people in the thread slagging students off, don't paint us all with same brush.
thats all were saying though, dont tar us all with the same brush.
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nibnob21
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Registered: 16th May 10
Location: South Derbyshire
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Err, I'm not?! I'm just saying the thousands of monkeys at companies like Sky do not deserve to be called Engineers. I'm sure we'd both agree on that.
MX5 Project Thread
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eckers90
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Registered: 22nd Apr 12
Location: birmingham
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absolutely. the thing is the government are tarring all people with the same brush, theres many different circumstances out there.
theres fully competent extremely skilled people who i feel deserve the engineer title and then theres monkeys who dont.
but then theres also grads who are absolutely useless who dont deserve the title engineer, and grads that are amazing at what they do and fully deserve it.
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LeeM
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Registered: 26th Sep 05
Location: Liverpool
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Google define engineer:
Noun:
A person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or public works.
Plenty of these "engineers" everyone is saying aren't really engineers fit into that definition.
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alan-g-w
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Registered: 9th Nov 07
Location: Glasgow
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BI've completed a 4 year apprenticeship in mechanical fitting along with an HNC. I call myself an engineer since I engineer solutions to problems - for example, we'll get a refurb in at work where a motor platform, bracket or some sort of sub assembly will need replaced with a brand new part. We have no technical drawings, no previous item to lift sizes off and sometimes I'll just be given a component and told it needs to be fitted. I'd look at the job, work out from scratch how to go about making said item, gather the material needed and take it to the welders/ platers if I need anything done by them and ultimately 'design' and 'manufacture' the things on my own.
Basically I'm not going to have some jumped up office worker telling me I'm not an engineer. I physically engineer things in the practical sense - I could see an assembler being called a technician i.e. someone who works on a production line who only needs a few weeks training to be 100% competant at a job. To claim that a proper mechanical fitter is not an engineer a fucking kick in the face to the million of people who have trained hard for just as long, and in some instances longer, than some of these uni fuckwits you see kicking about. It strikes me as pure elitism and snobbery, almost desperate, that the need to confirm their status is so great that they'll deny the blue collared people working beside them, most of the time with more knowledge than them, the same title just because they've not got a specific piece of paper.
I've worked with these 'engineers' on plenty of occasions and can honestly say that the vast majority are totally inept practical work wise. I understand that they're able to do things that I'm not but ultimately what these people have is knowledge, not skill. I've done the job of project engineers when I had my hernia and got light duties - the bottom line is that with a few weeks' training, a mechanicak fitter could do an office based engineer's job (to an extent). It doesn't work the other way though in my experience.
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neil h
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Registered: 28th Sep 06
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See this is the sorta crap that happens when some bright spark decides there gonna put a badly worded petition on the Internet.
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alan-g-w
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Registered: 9th Nov 07
Location: Glasgow
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Official papers stating I'm a recognised engineer. I'll take that over any arrogant uni grads' opinion any day.
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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Don't see what the fuss is about tbh, why are people so desperate to be known as engineers, its hardly a prestigious role, probably a bit of an old fashioned throw back to the industrial era where people designed things by hand and computers didn't exist. Engineer is thrown into the same bracket as coal miner really
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RichR
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Registered: 17th Oct 01
Location: Waterhouses, Staffordshire
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In fairness Steven, your statement is exactly the reason why people want to protect the status of engineer as a professional title as it is in most of Europe and the rest of the world. In the same way as completing a PHD makes you a Doctor in your field, completing an Engineering Degree to Bachelor or Masters grade alongside membership of or incorporation to a professional body should be seen with a esteem. It's the distinguishment that is the problem. Engineering in the purest sense of the word should be celebrated and those working to drive forward their given fields should be encouraged. However, in the pub Olympics when John the Sky Engineer or Dave the Sales Engineer or Fred the Fitting Engineer compare themselves with what that engineer that is developing, designing and bettering their field, you can see why some people are miffed that it has lost or is losing its kudos.
[Edited on 14-07-2012 by LiVe LeE]
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nibnob21
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Registered: 16th May 10
Location: South Derbyshire
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Hit the nail on the head really.
MX5 Project Thread
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DaveyLC
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Registered: 8th Oct 08
Location: Berkshire
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Surely it would be better to edit this petition and swap the word "Engineer" with "Manager".. Every c**t is a manager these days; Since when did the word manager start meaning "Useless Tazzock" ?
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kz
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Registered: 9th Aug 02
Location: Southend, Essex Drives: Mini Cooper S
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I was originally employed as a (trainee) engineering technician, how'd ya like that.
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micra_pete
Premium Member
Registered: 23rd Apr 03
Location: West Yorkshire
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Don't see what the fuss is about tbh, why are people so desperate to be known as engineers, its hardly a prestigious role, probably a bit of an old fashioned throw back to the industrial era where people designed things by hand and computers didn't exist. Engineer is thrown into the same bracket as coal miner really
Steve I like you lots, and have liked you lots for many internet year. However with this comment you are an idiot. It would appear you have no idea what an engineer is, you are however still one of my favorite cs'er.
My little bit on this would be, I design roads / car parks / structures. I have done for over a decade, I am the lead engineer in my company and work directly on recommendation for several well known client. I have no degree but a wealth of knowledge and other industry related qualifications and accreditation .
Any boy leaving school is not an engineer its gained by doing engineering. Not reading about it.
A degree and good experience is a wonderful thing. A degree by itself does not an engineer make.
Nor does doing routine operations over and over that a person with basic training could undertake.
[Edited on 14-07-2012 by micra_pete]
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RichR
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Registered: 17th Oct 01
Location: Waterhouses, Staffordshire
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I've just re-read what I put and I should clarify that I don't think an engineer has to be degree qualified but I think they should be eligible to qualify for acceeditation or incorporation to a professional organisation within their field; that can be gained by either qualification or experience but most often by both.
I worked from being a graduate member of the royal institute of Naval Architects (GMRINA) to Assosciate member (AMRINA) and am now working towards Fellow Member (FMRINA), this progression is only possible through experience and nomination by other members and the recognition is shown by having those letters after my name; I.e. my name is now followed by BEng (Hons) AMRINA; that doesn't mean anything to anyone outside of my profession but it's important to me and to my profession to reward progression and protect the accreditation of being an Engineer in the field of Naval Architecture.
Some guy who buys himself a snap on torque wrench is not and cannot be accredited as an engineer!
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neil h
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Registered: 28th Sep 06
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quote:
Originally posted by alan-g-w
Official papers stating I'm a recognised engineer. I'll take that over any arrogant uni grads' opinion any day.
I'm sorry but that's a certificate of modern apprenticeship. With all due respect that is a complete misuse of the title 'engineer'.
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nibnob21
Premium Member
Registered: 16th May 10
Location: South Derbyshire
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Exactly, that's the whole point. A fitter and assembler is definitely not an engineer.
MX5 Project Thread
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bracey123
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Registered: 24th Oct 08
Location: parkhead, Glasgow City
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It clearly is if its on official paper! Who gives a shit anyway, a jobs a job at the end of the day! And why should it even be possible for engineers to have letters at the start of there name?? Imo only doctors should have that!
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neil h
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Registered: 28th Sep 06
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quote:
Originally posted by bracey123
It clearly is if its on official paper! Who gives a shit anyway, a jobs a job at the end of the day! And why should it even be possible for engineers to have letters at the start of there name?? Imo only doctors should have that!
Ok first off, anyone who has completed a doctorate is entitled to the Dr. prenomials. Be that in PHD in law, medicine or even engineering.
And to the comment that it's an official paper, that fact doesn't make it right IMO. It clearly states its a certificate of modern apprenticeship, the modern apprenticeship being 3-4 years and only requiring academic qualifications to HNC level. The fact is if I were to take that certificate (as I have in my own field) to a professional body eg the IET, you will be eligible for the postnomials ENGtech (engineering technician).
Anywhere outside of the UK that certificate would be laughed at on the basis it does not entitle the holder the use of the title 'Engineer'. To get that title you would be required to be registered with a professional body and hold either IEng or CEng accreditation, both of which I can tell you now take more than 4 years to achieve.
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sxibeast
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Registered: 6th Aug 03
Location: Milton Keynes
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quote:
It clearly states its a certificate of modern apprenticeship, the modern apprenticeship being 3-4 years and only requiring academic qualifications to HNC level.
Not quite true there, the modern apprenticeship scheme doesn't take you to HNC level, it just gives you the basics you need to complete a range of tasks and basic knowledge. You ask an apprentice about calculating bending moments and you'll most likely get blank looks!
I completed my modern apprenticeship, but on top of what i had learnt, then completed an ONC and HNC in Mechanical Engineering. The academic side of a modern apprenticeship does not cover the same type of information that an HNC does (its far more in depth). If your employer decides that completing a modern apprenticeship scheme at the company includes doing an HNC that is fine, but doesn't come under the modern apprenticeship scheme. I am now doing a BEng in Mechanical Engineering with the OU. When i applied, they wouldnt even entertain my apprenticeship qualifications, only ONC/HNC.
To give an example;
Myself and a former colleague started the same job at the same time doing an apprenticeship. We both completed the 4 years required, then completed an ONC. I wen ton further to complete an HNC whereas he didn't. In the eyes of my former company i was more highly qualified and thus could go further (until i reached the 'wall' where i would require a degree. He could not go any further whatsoever just with his apprenticeship. He went for 6 interviews and was caught out on lack of knowledge each time. I went for 1 and got it straight away. His overall knowledge of engineering is poor, yet i have taken the time to learn and absorb as much as i can to increase my knowledge base.
The way i see it, an engineer is someone who pushes forwards current technology and innovation of new technology for the good of the sector, community, country or world. They also take pride in their knowledge and professional development (taking on new opportunities, courses etc).
Although i am employed as a Production Engineer, until i have either EngTech, IEng or CEng after my name i don't class myself as an engineer (even though my job features heavy use of innovation and invention). Professional registration and achieving the letters confirms it to me and others of how serious i am about my role, not just telling people i am an engineer because my employer says so. Until i have the letters after my name, i am a technician (although i am just awaiting confirmation of my EngTech accreditation to come through now with the IMechE, and should be able to apply for IEng in a couple of years).
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neil h
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Registered: 28th Sep 06
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quote:
Originally posted by sxibeast
Although i am employed as a Production Engineer, until i have either EngTech, IEng or CEng after my name i don't class myself as an engineer (even though my job features heavy use of innovation and invention). Professional registration and achieving the letters confirms it to me and others of how serious i am about my role, not just telling people i am an engineer because my employer says so. Until i have the letters after my name, i am a technician (although i am just awaiting confirmation of my EngTech accreditation to come through now with the IMechE, and should be able to apply for IEng in a couple of years).
 thank you. Couldn't of said it better myself. Oh except ENGtech makes you an accredited technician really.
And iirc it was made out to us that the ONC/HNC were requirements of the Advanced Apprenticeship.
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