Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Cavey
Nothing said in this thread has been racist, just people being stupid. So what moderation should Ian have done? It's just been people giving their opinion. Whether right or wrong
I didnt say anywhere he should moderate it .... I applauded him for the lack of moderation on here... in my earlier post
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Ian
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quote:
Originally posted by neil h
So it could be argued that in the context of the original post Griffiths comment wasn't racist (although potentially intended to be) on the basis the lad it was aimed at shrugged it off as banter.
No - the original comment about going home is racist - but doesn't warrant that reaction. The target of it isn't offended, its not really news and it doesn't warrant disciplinary action. I think it makes him look stupid for not having anything better, but its not the massive story that liberal white Britain would like it to be.
We so seem unable to grade things according to proportion, like saying a word should be eradicated, then saying its OK to have it on a T shirt.
[Edited on 13-01-2013 by Ian]
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
in this country, and our culture it is a word that needed to be eradicated.
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
But its certainly not an offensive or racist t shirt design
I'd be keen to know how those two contradictory viewpoints can co-exist.
Its pretty obvious how
White person calling Pakistani a paki ....not ok
Pakistani saying he is proud to be a paki ....ok
White man calling black man nigger.. not ok
Black man calling black man nigger ...ok
There is not a problem in this country with pakistanis abusing each other with the word paki .....there has been a problem with white people using the word.
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Ian
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I'm clear about the etymology of paki.
My question was how, if a word is eradicated, you can still put it on a T shirt.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
quote:
Originally posted by neil h
So it could be argued that in the context of the original post Griffiths comment wasn't racist (although potentially intended to be) on the basis the lad it was aimed at shrugged it off as banter.
No - the original comment about going home is racist - but doesn't warrant that reaction. The target of it isn't offended, its not really news and it doesn't warrant disciplinary action. I think it makes him look stupid for not having anything better, but its not the massive story that liberal white Britain would like it to be.
We so seem unable to grade things according to proportion, like saying a word should be irradiated, then saying its OK to have it on a T shirt.
I love the way you are so vocal on what you see as 'liberal white britain' ...as if this is a really dangerous section of society
Yet you are completeley silent on the vocal, idioctic right wing section of your sites membership.
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Ian
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
I didnt say anywhere he should moderate it .... I applauded him for the lack of moderation on here... in my earlier post
Just to be clear, is that I'm moderating well or I'm moderating poorly?
Or I'm encouraging it?
Or I'm ignorant and ill-informed about racism?
Or I'm picking at minor points in the hope of drawing attention to the hypocrisy of fake rage.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
I'm clear about the etymology of paki.
My question was how, if a word is eradicated, you can still put it on a T shirt.
because the word nigger has been eradicated by civilised white society ...this has been a good thing for the world
Yet the word nigger has been reclaimed by black culture and used as a positive phrase in hip hop and in general life
I dont see it an issue if a pakistani child wears a t shirt saying he is proud to be a paki
I do see an issue if a white child wears a t shirt saying - im glad im not a paki
What point are you trying to make Ian. .... you think we should use the word more? That its nit something that is nearly always inappropriate for a white person to say?
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neil h
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Registered: 28th Sep 06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
Its pretty obvious how
White person calling Pakistani a paki ....not ok
Pakistani saying he is proud to be a paki ....ok
White man calling black man nigger.. not ok
Black man calling black man nigger ...ok
There is not a problem in this country with pakistanis abusing each other with the word paki .....there has been a problem with white people using the word.
Ahhhh the joys of discrimination. 
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
I didnt say anywhere he should moderate it .... I applauded him for the lack of moderation on here... in my earlier post
Just to be clear, is that I'm moderating well or I'm moderating poorly?
Or I'm encouraging it?
Or I'm ignorant and ill-informed about racism?
Or I'm picking at minor points in the hope of drawing attention to the hypocrisy of fake rage.
yes you encourage it, yes you are being ignorant, yes you are picking at minor points and ignoring major ones, yes your moderating is fine
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Ian
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
I love the way you are so vocal on what you see as 'liberal white britain' ...as if this is a really dangerous section of society
Yet you are completeley silent on the vocal, idioctic right wing section of your sites membership.
Do wish you'd stop being sarcastic, it makes it really easy to misunderstand when you're insulting me.
You mean you dislike my use of the liberal white Britain marker? I don't love it myself but I've no other collective term for the people I'm talking about. I think you know who I mean though? The reason that stories like that are so large. This particular one about LG should be an issue between LG and Hibbs but instead its national news. Its not really news it is. I shouted fuck in a corridor once. Not national news.
Again, I'm silent on idiots because they're welcome to be ousted as idiots. If I devoted time to fixing idiots I'd be here a while. You want a red message for racist idiots? You noticed it, so did other people, that's enough for me.
Your opinion of me is your own. No one is going to come along and edit my post and label it as prejudice or ignorant, however much you think it is.
I have an opinion on that post, I've posted it. I also don't think it needs moderating.
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Ian
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
you think we should use the word more?
No - my point was that you said it should be eradicated, something which you later reneged on.
I didn't even talk about my personal view on the word paki. I personally don't use it in a derogatory way and I do find it slightly uncomfortable when people use it in free speech. But I'm not campaigning for its eradication.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by neil h
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
Its pretty obvious how
White person calling Pakistani a paki ....not ok
Pakistani saying he is proud to be a paki ....ok
White man calling black man nigger.. not ok
Black man calling black man nigger ...ok
There is not a problem in this country with pakistanis abusing each other with the word paki .....there has been a problem with white people using the word.
Ahhhh the joys of discrimination.
I dont know how much simpler this can be put ... I will have another go
A good way to reduce racist abuse is to make it unacceptable for a white person to use certain words that have historically been racist terms
...it is that simple - I dont see how hard it is to comprehend or why some people feel this is so out of order
[Edited on 13-01-2013 by Dr Pepper]
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Ian
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
A good way to reduce racist abuse is to make it unacceptable for a white person to use certain words that have historically been racist terms
That's not what you said though is it? You said it should be eradicated, then you changed your mind to say it should be prohibited for white people to use it. That's a bit racist TBH.
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neil h
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Funnily enough I didn't think it was that complicated either. Your talking about eradicating one form of discrimination, yet your merely replacing it with another. How is that a reasonable solution.
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Ian
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
yes you encourage it, yes you are being ignorant
Can you find me some of this. More so the ignorant one. I can half see I encourage it if its my site and I'll discuss it candidly. Not sure I agree I'm creating racists but we might have to differ on that.
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Ian
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quote:
Originally posted by neil h
How is that a reasonable solution.
Does sound a lot like the training I used to receive, spend three hours talking about banning all forms of anything approaching anything remotely looking like prejudice because its more vile and repulsive than the things those words were actually designed for, then go on to say actually it quite easy and you probably already knew.
I still maintain anyone who needs telling can't be told. All that training ever did was make it easier for people to hide it.
I could also tell you about how my colleagues actually did loads of racist stuff over the years and about how I didn't but I was the only person in that faculty ever to be accused of it. But I suppose I'm ignorant so my 12 years of dealing with these issues doesn't count.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
A good way to reduce racist abuse is to make it unacceptable for a white person to use certain words that have historically been racist terms
That's not what you said though is it? You said it should be eradicated, then you changed your mind to say it should be prohibited for white people to use it. That's a bit racist TBH.
Can I just change my mind to say you are now being really ignorant
Its not racist to say I cant call a pakistani a paki - but a pakistani can use that phrase to describe himself
Its not racist to say I cant call a black man a nigger - but he can call himself a nigger
The issue in society isnt with pakistanis being racially abused by pakistanis ...the issue is they have historically been subjected to racist abuse from white people. A Pakistani wearing a t shirt saying that he is proud to be a paki is not a social issue that needed addressing ..... where as groups of white lads at a football game singing "id rather be a paki than a turk" was something that needed eradicating
and as much as you hate the kind of training you were subjected to - it works ..... it is now not acceptable in any way for a white person to use racially provocative language in the workplace ...even in working class environments like football grounds or factories, working mans clubs ect it is now not acceptable ...and that is a direct result of Political Correctness and that is a very good thing in my opinion
[Edited on 13-01-2013 by Dr Pepper]
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Ian
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I am fucking with you a bit because its funny to see you try and educate me on race when I worked in an environment for years where these types of issues come up every single day.
I'm clear, you don't think it should be eradicated. The confusion came in because you said it should.
Please don't accidentally misunderstand that I want to go out and shout these words at people because I'm a horrible racist with no brain.
I've tried to keep my views to a minimum, because I was more talking about yours than comparing yours to mine. I happen to agree with a lot of yours. In fact its all fairly easy stuff, my apologies if you thought it was necessary to spell it out to me, it really wasn't.
If you've formed an opinion on my personal views on racism, I hope that is accurate. In the meanwhile, please note my posts are only really interested in criticising other people's views. Not specifically promoting my own.
I do think its actually quite easy.
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neil h
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
quote:
Originally posted by Ian
That's not what you said though is it? You said it should be eradicated, then you changed your mind to say it should be prohibited for white people to use it. That's a bit racist TBH.
Can I just change my mind to say you are now being really ignorant
Its not racist to say I cant call a pakistani a paki - but a pakistani can use that phrase to describe himself
Its not racist to say I cant call a black man a nigger - but he can call himself a nigger
Are you or are you not discriminating who can and can not use the words 'Paki' and 'nigger' on the basis of race? You've categorically said that the respective races can use those words and that white people can not. That there is discrimination on the grounds of race, which call it what ever you like is racism. Yes its not racial abuse but it is still racism.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
I am fucking with you a bit because its funny to see you try and educate me on race when I worked in an environment for years where these types of issues come up every single day.
I'm clear, you don't think it should be eradicated. The confusion came in because you said it should.
Please don't accidentally misunderstand that I want to go out and shout these words at people because I'm a horrible racist with no brain.
I've tried to keep my views to a minimum, because I was more talking about yours than comparing yours to mine. I happen to agree with a lot of yours. In fact its all fairly easy stuff, my apologies if you thought it was necessary to spell it out to me, it really wasn't.
If you've formed an opinion on my personal views on racism, I hope that is accurate. In the meanwhile, please note my posts are only really interested in criticising other people's views. Not specifically promoting my own.
I do think its actually quite easy.
I clearly do not think you are a racist. Its obvious you have a brain. I fully accept a bad anti discrimination course or campaign can actual create more resentment and there for more racism.
Its obvious from other things you have said about your past that you understand the issue in depth.....which makes it hard to understand why you are blatantly trolling me over an important issue- that you agree with me on many points.....to the point that I have to talk to you like a simpleton - because you are asking intentionally simple questions over and over again
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Ian
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
and as much as you hate the kind of training you were subjected to - it works ..... it is now not acceptable in any way for a white person to use racially provocative language in the workplace ...even in working class environments like football grounds or factories, working mans clubs ect it is now not acceptable ...and that is a direct result of Political Correctness and that is a very good thing in my opinion
Then you're not familiar with the training I'm talking about.
This isn't telling people not to shout nigger and then later they don't shout nigger.
This is about training people to not be racist and then foreign students being denied a place on the course because their applications were more hassle than a domestic student. Or non-native speakers not being called back because English wasn't their first language. Or a black student's withdrawal from a course not being followed up because it wasn't statistically unusual. There are loads, saw it all the time, but no one shouted nigger so its fine.
All prejudice, all poor attitudes based on pre-conceived ideas and an institutional laziness that made it easier to educate the white people who were going to pass.
If that doesn't fit with your view of racism because its not denigration of a race at a football match then we differ there. But please don't form an opinion of me when because I don't come out in arms about people shouting nasty words, I'm ignorant of the issues.
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Ian
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
because you are asking intentionally simple questions over and over again
It was just that bit about removing the word, thought that was a bit too difficult.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by neil h
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
quote:
Originally posted by Ian
That's not what you said though is it? You said it should be eradicated, then you changed your mind to say it should be prohibited for white people to use it. That's a bit racist TBH.
Can I just change my mind to say you are now being really ignorant
Its not racist to say I cant call a pakistani a paki - but a pakistani can use that phrase to describe himself
Its not racist to say I cant call a black man a nigger - but he can call himself a nigger
Are you or are you not discriminating who can and can not use the words 'Paki' and 'nigger' on the basis of race? You've categorically said that the respective races can use those words and that white people can not. That there is discrimination on the grounds of race, which call it what ever you like is racism. Yes its not racial abuse but it is still racism.
yes I am very much discriminating who can and can not use the words 'Paki' and 'nigger' on the basis of that persons race
I will say for why one more time
Pakistanis calling themselves pakis is not an issue which needs addressing in our society- white people racially abusing asians with the word -is
[Edited on 13-01-2013 by Dr Pepper]
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Sam
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quote:
Originally posted by baza31
I don't see what's wrong with been racist . Every individual has their own choice on their own decisions.
If you were a black man for example, and some white folk came up to you and called you a nigger, telling you to go back to your own country, making gorilla noises etc., and were behaving in an obviously derogatory manner towards you, would you not have issue with this?
[Edited on 13-01-2013 by Sam]
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Ian
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
I still maintain anyone who needs telling can't be told.
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