evilrob
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Registered: 16th Mar 12
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quote:
Originally posted by Balling
quote:
Originally posted by evilrob
You're not on Snapchat now, fella. 
Seriously though, I just weighed it: 193g assembled with a full tank of liquid and battery installed.
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LeeM
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Registered: 26th Sep 05
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by John
How many people do what you and Lee do and how many buy Chinese stuff? Probably a tiny percentage doing it your way.
that doesn't make e-cigs dangerous though, it makes some cheap chinese rubbish dangerous. cheap mobile chargers from china can melt and explode, are mobile phones dangerous?
e-cigs are regulated by trading standards, just like anything else sold in this country. market stalls and dodgy shops selling dangerous illegal products imported from abroad will get their stock seized if they're found out, just like if they were selling any other product.
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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Mobile phones go through lots of testing, same as medical products.
Completely agree that idiots using them don't make them bad. They are also better than actual smoking.
They are not however definitely safe and still being addicted to nicotene isn't stopping smoking. You are still being controlled by a drug.
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evilrob
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Registered: 16th Mar 12
Location: Your mum's house
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Can we all agree that the so-called 'regulation' coming in less about helping dickheads to not buy bonky Chinese e-cig related tat and more about recouping some of the lost tax dollars from said dickheads no longer buying actual cigarettes.
About £4 from a pack of fags goes into the Government's pocket - arguably a good amount of that goes towards treating patients with smoking-related illnesses. However, and I must admit I haven't researched the figures, I'd be interested to see if you could argue that tobacco smoking provides a net benefit to the economy, due to savings on pensions and benefits/medical care/housing costs for the elderly that would not have to be paid since smokers die earlier (statistically - of course there are 100-year-olds boshing down a Montecristo No. 4 every day, but this is the exception rather than the rule).
People not smoking is an economic disaster - less tax income today and people living longer (past retirement) is totally not what the system needs.
[Edited on 12-01-2014 by evilrob]
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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We've had that discussion on here before. Income from smoking tax far outweighs treating the weak willed.
I think what promoted the regulation was bubblegum flavour targeted at kids with tax being less of an issue.
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evilrob
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Location: Your mum's house
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quote:
Originally posted by John
They are not however definitely safe and still being addicted to nicotene isn't stopping smoking. You are still being controlled by a drug.
I agree that they are not definitely safe. But they are not definitely unsafe either - 'analogue' cigarettes irrefutably are. It's a gamble. I think a lot of the risks can be mitigated by not being a spastic and doing a little bit of due diligence instead of buying the first eCig you stumble across and hoping for the best.
I disagree that continuing to consume nicotine isn't stopping smoking. I'm no longer setting fire to things and putting them in my mouth. I'm no longer annoying people in restaurants walking past them after coming in from having a fag with a wave of tobaccoey stench behind me. I think this is a good thing.
I am addicted to nicotine, I wouldn't say I'm controlled by it, but I do prefer being under the influence of nicotine than not. Although I do consume nicotine, I don't drink alcohol - another widely consumed legal drug with known health detriments and a tax income vs. cost to society balance (but that's an argument for another thread I think!) My point here being that we all have our vices - mine happens to be nicotine.
[Edited on 12-01-2014 by evilrob]
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evilrob
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quote:
Originally posted by John
bubblegum flavour targeted at kids with tax being less of an issue.
Pull the other one.
They're not going to say, "hey - we, the government, and our buddies in the pharmaceutical business Mr Johnson, Mr Pfizer and Mr Merck would really like to profit from and tax this you fuckers" - there has to be a plausible justification - in this case, "it's to protect the kids, man!"
[Edited on 13-01-2014 by evilrob]
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John
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Drinking alcohol is different from needing alcohol. A reliance on it is probably worse than smoking.
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evilrob
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quote:
Originally posted by John
because they are unregulated, there is no control over them. Couple this with the fact they are being imported (who really knows the origin?), and you've got a recipe for aids and bird flu mixed in a with your toilet water and nicotine.
Economic concerns aside, I can't see regulating the market making things safer - it's not really unsafe as it stands for anyone with a modicum of common sense. Yes, you can buy some stuff of questionable or unknown origin on the cheap, but this is true of anything you might consider purchasing, 'regulated' or otherwise.
Think of it like buying a car, and choosing a fuel to put in it. If you buy any old car without doing a little bit of homework, you can't be upset if it turns out to be a cut and shut or clocked or all the panels are packed with filler and the steering wheel is a banana. And if, instead of going to a reputable supplier of fuel, you buy several gallons of 'it's legit, promise' round the back of Mr. Wong's for £20 - you shouldn't be surprised when your engine starts pinging.
This is why I will have no sympathy for cheapo eCig users who find they've got a few extra nipples in a year's time. Good - enjoy your supernumerary nipples and try to be less of a cretin in future*. There are quality products designed and manufactured in the UK or USA which won't be riddled with AIDS - if you've bought your eCig from MegaCigz.biz (fictional, I hope) following a cursory google of the term 'cheap ecigs' it probably contains twigs and poo. And babies.
My point is that you can get conned buying anything - even in a supposedly regulated market; horse meat in burgers for example. You can put all these measures in place but the shysters will always find a way to get their substandard product to market, and people will still buy whatever is being sold, even if it's shit - knowingly or through ignorance - because people are dicks.
I believe that eCigs are less harmful than actual cigarettes, particularly if you're just a little bit sensible about it, but I concede that you can buy ones that I personally wouldn't touch with a bargepole. I reckon that post-regulation you will still be able to buy the ones I turn my nose up at, but 20% more expensive and with difficulty if you're under 16. OR, slightly more sinisterly, you'll be able to buy government-approved, licensed Nicorette-branded eCigs, maybe even ONLY Nicorette-branded eCigs on prescription or something if they really want to go all-out on the 'safety', after some wonky handshakes between Johnson & Johnson Limited execs, Jeremy Hunt and George Osbourne in a trendy coffee bar in Soho. I'm pretty sure J&J (who own McNeil Consumer Healthcare that produce Nicorette-branded products) must be fuming at the rise of eCigs and the millions of stickers they might otherwise have sold.
The J&J outcome is of course pure conjecture, and would serve only to drive the eCig business underground and onto street corners thereby reducing quality, but the more I think about it the more it becomes apparent that this 'regulation' is horse shit - it's pharmaceutical companies and the government wanting in on the action, under the premise of 'safety' with the Daily Mail brigade whooping all the way.
* If it turns out that despite putting some effort in, it is me that develops some surplus-to-requirements teats - then it's my own fucking fault for choosing to ingest a pesticide which happens to have pleasant psychoactive side effects.
[Edited on 14-01-2014 by evilrob]
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LeeM
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Registered: 26th Sep 05
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by John
They are not however definitely safe and still being addicted to nicotene isn't stopping smoking. You are still being controlled by a drug.
if i was wearing nicotine patches daily but hadn't had a cigarette in 6 months would i still be smoking every time i stuck a patch on? is chewing nicotine gum the same as smoking? smoking is the process of setting tobacco on fire and inhaling smoke, if you don't do that then you're not smoking. also, I'm nowhere near as addicted as i was, can go all day without mine now but i enjoy it as much as people enjoy a few coffees throughout the day.
they've been tested plenty, they've been around years. so far no one has found definitive evidence theres anything wrong with them, which to me suggests there isn't, so they're safe enough for me. and yes, it took years for cigarettes to be proven unsafe, in a less scientifically advanced time. I'm pretty sure now thev discovered cigarettes to be lethal they know how to test an e-cigarette properly.
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LeeM
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Registered: 26th Sep 05
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also forgot tot add this
"PG has been used as the aqueous-based chemical additive in asthma inhalers and nebulizers since the 1950s, with no serious side effects known. PG, because of its water-retaining properties, is the compound of choice for delivering atomized medication. It is also a common diluent for injectable medications, constituting 40 percent of the intravenous form of Phenytoin, an anti-seizure drug."
pg makes up 50-80% of most e-liquid. if its safe for use in asthma inhalers, i reckon its fine in an e-cig
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Balling
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So, just trying to get things clear here, over the span of 5 pages electronic cigarettes have gone from being "completely harmless" to "probably not too bad if you make your own equipment and mix your own liquid"?
Still not trying to have a go at anyone, but this isn't exactly consistent and crystal clear information, that the average consumer can easily access and understand.
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Ellis
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Registered: 11th Sep 07
Location: Aberdeenshire
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quote:
Originally posted by Balling
So, just trying to get things clear here, over the span of 5 pages electronic cigarettes have gone from being "completely harmless" to "probably not too bad if you make your own equipment and mix your own liquid"?
Still not trying to have a go at anyone, but this isn't exactly consistent and crystal clear information, that the average consumer can easily access and understand.
How can it be crystal clear if there is no 'approved' research? Until such time there is, the actual impact of using these is unquantified.
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evilrob
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Registered: 16th Mar 12
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quote:
Originally posted by Balling
So, just trying to get things clear here, over the span of 5 pages electronic cigarettes have gone from being "completely harmless" to "probably not too bad if you make your own equipment and mix your own liquid"?
Still not trying to have a go at anyone, but this isn't exactly consistent and crystal clear information, that the average consumer can easily access and understand.
It's really quite simple: In principle, eCigs should be less harmful than actual cigarettes because they should contain no known carcinogens - nicotine is not carcinogenic, propylene glycol is not carcinogenic and you're all coming into contact with it on a daily basis in various foods and cosmetic products. In a well made device the only other ingredient should be some sort of food-grade flavouring - which again should be considered safe.
The confusion comes because you can buy good eCig equipment and bad eCig equipment, much like you can buy good and bad anything else. But even those cheap and nasty ones that have been found to contain small amounts of harmful substances still contain fewer known harmful substances and in lower concentrations than actual cigarettes. If you want to be absolutely certain of what you're inhaling, make your own liquid and do your homework when selecting a device.
The misinformation is largely sensationalist guff from Daily Mail-style angry mob papers - all this shit about people who have all their teeth blown out due to a malfunctioning device, or whatever - is the exception rather than the rule.
Whichever way you look at it - actual smoking is bad for you. The evidence suggests that the ingredients which should be in eCigs are not bad for you. Cheap devices may have quality issues - you get what you pay for. It is not fair to take those exceptional cases of poor workmanship where harmful substances have been introduced and deem the entire eCig concept as unsafe.
[Edited on 13-01-2014 by evilrob]
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Balling
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Location: Denmark
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quote:
Originally posted by Ellis
How can it be crystal clear if there is no 'approved' research? Until such time there is, the actual impact of using these is unquantified.
Here's my gripe:
quote:
Originally posted by Ellis
Compare inhaling a mix of nicotine and vegetable glycerin / propylene glycol to the batch of chemicals you get from a cigarette e.g. arsenic, cyanide's etc. I'm sure you'll find the risks are much lower indeed.
You give the impression that you actually know this product to be safe(r) to ingest, while the real answer is a lot more nuanced, as revealed over the last few pages.
This is a product marketed solely as being the healthier option, while the truth is this is in best case an assumption and in worst case an outright lie.
[Edited on 13-01-2014 by Balling]
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evilrob
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Balling: I think we need to draw a distinction between the concept of "heating of a correctly-prepared flavoured nicotine solution using a well-made and well-maintained device and subsequent inhalation of the vapour" and "any given eCig device".
I would not buy any ready-made nicotine solution, or any pre-filled eCig device. Not because I believe them to be unsafe, but because I prefer to know exactly what's going into this stuff. For the same reason I avoid ready-made microwave meals and prefer to prepare my food from fresh, bake my own bread etc.
"Any given eCig device" has the potential to contain harmful substances - either in its construction or the formulation of its liquid, and is a risk I'm not willing to take.
"Heating of a correctly-prepared flavoured nicotine solution using a well-made and well-maintained device and subsequent inhalation of the vapour" should not, on paper, pose any risk.
[Edited on 13-01-2014 by evilrob]
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evilrob
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Registered: 16th Mar 12
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quote:
Originally posted by Balling
This is a product marketed solely as being the healthier option, while the truth is this is in best case an assumption and in worst case an outright lie.
I agree with this to some extent.
"Any given eCig device" is not healthy. Not consuming any nicotine at all is healthy.
For me there is enough information available to feel that the "heating of a correctly-prepared flavoured nicotine solution using a well-made and well-maintained device and subsequent inhalation of the vapour" is not doing me any harm - I'm confident my device is hygienic and safe, and I'm confident my liquid contains only quality ingredients which have been proven to be non-carginogenic.
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JordyCarter
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Registered: 14th Mar 10
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Been looking into these, i want something fairly cheap that i can keep in my bag or something. I dont smoke many fags now these days anyway.
Slightly off topic... Whats the best herb vape? been looking at getting one but can only really find oil ones (BHO Oil) and oil is not accessible around my area yet :\.
Was looking on a website called trippystick but whats other people doing?
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C2RL R
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Registered: 28th Mar 02
Location: Redcliffe, QLD
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So has anybody had any success doing it the way I said in the first post? Reducing your nicotine strength over time until you go on the liquid which is just flavour and zero nicotine?
In about 7 hours I will have done exactly a week without a cigarette. Quite happy with that regardless of what other peoples opinion about me having "quit" is.
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Ellis
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Registered: 11th Sep 07
Location: Aberdeenshire
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quote:
Originally posted by Balling
quote:
Originally posted by Ellis
How can it be crystal clear if there is no 'approved' research? Until such time there is, the actual impact of using these is unquantified.
Here's my gripe:
quote:
Originally posted by Ellis
Compare inhaling a mix of nicotine and vegetable glycerin / propylene glycol to the batch of chemicals you get from a cigarette e.g. arsenic, cyanide's etc. I'm sure you'll find the risks are much lower indeed.
You give the impression that you actually know this product to be safe(r) to ingest, while the real answer is a lot more nuanced, as revealed over the last few pages.
This is a product marketed solely as being the healthier option, while the truth is this is in best case an assumption and in worst case an outright lie.
Pedantic
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LeeM
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Registered: 26th Sep 05
Location: Liverpool
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theres been plenty of approved research, they just havent found anything bad which would help the anti brigade.
how do you prove something is safe? id say finding nothing wrong is a good start
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JordyCarter
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Registered: 14th Mar 10
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Can anyone point me in the direction of a good tried and tested starter kit? One that doesnt break etc
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JordyCarter
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Registered: 14th Mar 10
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Just bought a ego starter kit for 8 quid lol
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Mad Moe
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Registered: 14th Jun 01
Location: Northumberland
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quote:
Originally posted by JordyCarter
Can anyone point me in the direction of a good tried and tested starter kit? One that doesnt break etc
I got this kit to begin with and it's absolutely spot on
http://www.ukecigstore.com/e-cigarette-kits/beginner-kits/the-one-one-kit.html
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Cole
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Registered: 11th Nov 02
Location: eastbourne Drives:zafira sold now a qashqai
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that's a bit of a bargain that kit ive got the tornado tank which is the same as in the kit above cost me 25 ffs in that kit you get 2
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