Aaron
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Registered: 9th Aug 04
Location: Cottingham, East Riding
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Scenario:
I have a large boiler in my flat. The boiler has two heating elements (one at the top and one at the bottom). The element at the top seemingly has power available to it 24/7. What i mean by that is that i can turn the wall socket on for the said element, then turn another switch on in the kitchen (i'll come to this bit in a sec)...and the said element will then heat up. According to a chap who came and did some plumbing work for me last night...this is what's known as the "top-up element". Fine.
My issue is the bottom element...the "Economy 7 element". As far as i can see, this element is only able to draw power during the Economy 7 time (through the night)...just like the three heaters which i have in the flat.
Problem:
I have an electrical shower fitted in the flat, which i can imagine my prospective tenant will want to use over running hot bath water each night/morning (that's just an assumption of course). My worry is that if the said tenant wants to have hot water available to them via the taps every day, they'll have to have the Economy 7 element heating up the water in the boiler each night (which is perhaps an unnecessary cost).
Question:
I realise that it's a difficult question to ask, and that i should really be asking a sparkie to come down to my flat to give me an informed answer, but i'm going to ask it on here anyway.
What does the switch in my kitchen actually control? I've already established that if the switch (it used to be some sort of badly designed timer until it broke) in the kitchen isn't turned on...the "top-up element" won't work, but...i have no idea if this said switch in the kitchen has anything to do with my Economy 7 element or not. I have a strong suspicion that the switch in the kitchen doesn't have any say/control over the Economy 7 element of my boiler, and that it's only there for the top-up element.
If this is the case, it puts my in an awkward situation, given that a prospective tenant might believe that they're spending money on heating up a boiler full of water when they dont really need to. What i did last night was fit a timer to both the top-up and Economy 7 element, which gives the tenant the ability to control if/when each element is heated (just one of those snap down timers which people usually use on their living room lights etc), however, i quickly realised that the Economy 7 element wasn't being powered...which rendered the said timer useless (because no power was there to allow it to tick round)
At the moment, i think my only option is to perhaps tell the prospective tenant to use the timer on the top-up element to heat the water during the night. This opens up another query though. I believe that any electricity used during the Economy 7 time will be charged at the Economy 7 rate...no matter which circuit/socket in the flat is used, however, my mrs thinks otherwise. We just had a discussion about this in bed before we got up 
Thanks
Edit - Spelling should now be sorted now that i'm awake
PaulJ
[Edited on 02-11-2012 by Aaron]
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Aaron
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Registered: 9th Aug 04
Location: Cottingham, East Riding
User status: Offline
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Update:
I just spoke to British Gas, and they pretty much told me that i need to find some sort of timer to tell my boiler to heat up for only a couple of hours per night on the Economy 7 element. This isnt as easy as it sounds though, because (as explained above), the said element can only be powered during the Economy 7 hours of 12:30 to 07:30. This means that a cheap timer from B&Q won't cut it, given that the said timer won't be powered for two thirds of the 24 hour day so that it can "tick around". I guess I'll need some sort of battery powered "intelligent" timer which will allow me to specify a time period when it should allow power to go through it to the heating element.
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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You get cheap digital timers, as long as the battery backup lasts while the power is off that's fine. Does the heating element not have some sort of temperature cut off anyway? Surely if it heats up to much it'll cut off? If that's the case just have it permanently on.
Because it will be a rental, I'd get someone who knows what they're doing to look at it and make sure it's set up properly.
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Aaron
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Registered: 9th Aug 04
Location: Cottingham, East Riding
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I agree. I've just spoke to a local sparkie, and I've booked him in for Monday night to take a look. £85 for a call out though, sounds quite expensive. This is why i was hoping to get it sorted myself. It looks and sounds like I need a professional to take a good look into it.
I can't be sure if the economy 7 element has a temperature cut off if I'm totally honest.
In the mean time though...If anyone could link me to a timer which could suit my needs, I'd much appreciate it.
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jrsteeve
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Registered: 3rd Apr 02
Location: Manchester
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I replied in the other thread - http://www.corsasport.co.uk/board/viewthread.php?tid=645727
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Aaron
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Registered: 9th Aug 04
Location: Cottingham, East Riding
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quote:
Originally posted by jrsteeve
I replied in the other thread - http://www.corsasport.co.uk/board/viewthread.php?tid=645727
Yeah cheers for the reply, and sorry for not responding to it.
Here's my problem though.
Unless you mean that the timers in that link should be somehow fitted directly to the power outlet going to the Economy 7 element, it won't do any good (from what i can see anyway)
The switch in the kitchen (which used to be a timer) seems to have no control what so ever over the Economy 7 element in my boiler. The reason why i think that it because when i had the bathroom tiled not too long ago, the chap who did the job for me left the spare tiles in my boiler room, however, little did he realise that he lent the said spare tiles up against the power switch to/for the Economy 7 element...and turned it on. The switch in the kitchen was turned off at this point (because the flat wasn't being lived in), however, it still heated the water up over night. I realised this a few days later when i was doing some decorating. I turned the hot water tap on to clean a paint brush (fully expecting it to be cold)...but hot water came out!
Confused.com
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Aaron
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Registered: 9th Aug 04
Location: Cottingham, East Riding
User status: Offline
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I should probably add that the reason why i'm keen to have some sort of timer fitted to the economy 7 heating element is because i dont see a need for the tenant to have to heat the water up for the full 7 hours. There's an electric shower in the bathroom now, and i'm sure that most people will use that...and they'll probably only use the water from the taps to perhaps have the odd bath, wash the pots etc.
My mrs thinks that i'm doing the wrong thing by looking into this so deeply, and she firmly believes that it'll be "the tenants problem"...but i don't agree. I honestly think the tenant of my flat won't need to heat the water from the economy 7 element for the full 7 hours each night. Heating the boiler for just 2 hours is more then enough.
Other options are to rip out the current boiler and replace it with a Combi of course. This would cure all of the problems to do with heating the water...and i'm told by the plumber who did some work for me the other night that my current boiler (which is a bit of a beast) would fetch roughly £350 when scrapped.
[Edited on 02-11-2012 by Aaron]
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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I'll wait for mattk or someone to confirm but they're normally worth about 20 quid.
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Aaron
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Registered: 9th Aug 04
Location: Cottingham, East Riding
User status: Offline
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I must admit that i was surprised to hear the words "three and a half hundred quid" come out of his mouth 
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Dave
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Registered: 26th Feb 01
Location: Lancs
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Is that not money off a new boiler as part of a scrappage scheme?
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S@M
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Registered: 3rd Oct 07
Location: East Yorkshire
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I'm on economy seven, and have the same setup as you with the immersion heater (water tank) having two heater elements... One on the economy seven circuit and then another with normal mains supply. Ive lived here two years and leave mine on all the time. The heating element normally have a thermostat built Into the head (were the wire goes into the probe)! If you take the cover off the top of the probe then normally have a adjustable pot that you can turn with a flat head screwdriver to adjust the temp.
I'm also an electrician by the way if that offers reassurance , haha
If the economy seven circuit is functioning correctly during the normal operating hours I wouldn't worry to much. Your idea of fitting the timer may be beneficial and could save you money although the gains would be quite small due to the tanks been well insulated and the temostat control of the heater
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S@M
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Registered: 3rd Oct 07
Location: East Yorkshire
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Also make sure the power is off when you remove any covers
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Aaron
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Registered: 9th Aug 04
Location: Cottingham, East Riding
User status: Offline
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Excellent, thanks for the info. I've got a sparkie coming down early next week to see if my idea of the timer can be done, but if not, i'll just leave it. The flat has an electric shower now, and for the 5 years i personally lived in the property...i didn't once use/turn on the economy 7 water heating element. When i had baths, the top-up element was always absolutely fine.
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Jules S
Premium Member
Registered: 24th Dec 03
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron
Excellent, thanks for the info. I've got a sparkie coming down early next week to see if my idea of the timer can be done, but if not, i'll just leave it. The flat has an electric shower now, and for the 5 years i personally lived in the property...i didn't once use/turn on the economy 7 water heating element. When i had baths, the top-up element was always absolutely fine.
You've just wasted £85 then 
As s@m and your missus said. Two power supplies, one E7 for heating over night, one mains for on demand. The E7 one is on a thermo that only kicks in when the temp drops; and the tanks are pretty bloody well insulated.
So effectively the thermostat is doing what your proposed timer is doing...
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Aaron
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Registered: 9th Aug 04
Location: Cottingham, East Riding
User status: Offline
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Who has wasted £85 on what?
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baza31
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Registered: 19th Apr 03
Location: yorkshire
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Tanks are a massive waste of money spend the money on updating to a combi
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