Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
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http://www.bitterwallet.com/vodafone-scrap-fair-use-policy-for-data-dont-tell-customers/29230
quote:
We are planning to introduce Out Of Bundle charging for Pay Monthly customers from 1st June 2010. The reason we’re introducing these charges is to make it fairer for everyone, and to protect our network from data abuse. We’re introducing a real-time notifications service to be completely transparent about these charges and keep customers in control of their spend. No Out Of Bundle charges will happen this month but they will take effect from 1st June. The messages you’ve received this month were sent in error and no more will be sent out from today.
The charging will be as follows: Monthly bundle customers will pay £5 for every 500MB after the first 500MB. Customers without a monthly bundle will pay 50p for every 10MB after the first 25MB
Whilst you’ve all previously been used to there not being any Out Of Bundle charging, the current information available online is clear in explaining that we could introduce such charging at any time.
It's a bit shit of Voda to do this especially as they'll continue to advertise 'unlimited' data and most likely not inform customers. And fuck knows why they think that the iPhone is special (1GB limit) over any other smartphone.
Luckily i saw this before i placed my order for a Desire with them.....
edit - Just having a look on their twitter page, "As we’ve always reserved to charge for data I’m afraid you wouldn’t be able to cancel agreement". Bit of a blow for anyone thinking about cancelling 
edit 2 - bit more about cancelling your contract, http://www.bitterwallet.com/can-i-cancel-my-vodafone-contract-new-statement-on-new-data-charges-but-theyre-still-wrong/29277
[Edited on 08-05-2010 by Dom]
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Eck
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Registered: 17th Apr 06
Location: Lundin Links, Fife
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Why on Earth does the iPhone get special treatment 
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Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
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quote:
Originally posted by Eck
Why on Earth does the iPhone get special treatment
I would have thought it'd be the other way around considering Android (and a lot of other mobile OS's) do 'over-air-updates' unlike (although the iPhone can do OAU, usually you use iTunes) the iPhone. To be honest, i don't think there would be much uproar if it was a reasonable limit like 1GB or so, but 500mb is pathetic as you can easily hit that in a month if you watch youtube, or use spotify.
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noshua
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Registered: 19th Nov 08
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Basically they're saying "we bought the iphone and now we can't handle it's data throughput"
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Robbo
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Registered: 6th Aug 02
Location: London
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Not at all noshua, i think youll find all the drive tests and independent test show vodaofne havign the most capable network to handle the iPhone.
This is all about QoS. The telecoms market has decided to do something about heavy users and needed someone to go first. all vodafone markets have this capability and it is gettign gradually switche don.
not necy sure i agree with it myself mind
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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quote:
Originally posted by noshua
Basically they're saying "we bought the iphone and now we can't handle it's data throughput"
what a load od BS.
all networks can apply a limit on data, the reason why this has had to happen, is because people were using a MOBILE INTERNET service incorrectly and tethering phones and using them as modems. this has been enforced as a result of people abusing the internet.
we never charged if people went over 500mb, but greedy customers made this happen
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Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
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I think the main issue is that Voda are setting the limit too low, 500mb is easily doable in a month. And it's just another blow to Voda customers when the iPhone and Nexus come with 1GB limits. Infact it's a bit odd of Voda to do this when the Desire is pretty much the same phone as the Nexus 
If they did a blanket cap of 1GB i think Voda would be alright. But Voda have shot themselves in the foot with this one, at the end of it they'll end up losing a lot of customers as well as getting a ridiculous amount of bad press. There's also the issue of them advertising data packages as being 'unlimited' when they clearly have hard-caps in place, i can see this landing them in hot water.
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dom
I think the main issue is that Voda are setting the limit too low, 500mb is easily doable in a month. And it's just another blow to Voda customers when the iPhone and Nexus come with 1GB limits. Infact it's a bit odd of Voda to do this when the Desire is pretty much the same phone as the Nexus
If they did a blanket cap of 1GB i think Voda would be alright. But Voda have shot themselves in the foot with this one, at the end of it they'll end up losing a lot of customers as well as getting a ridiculous amount of bad press. There's also the issue of them advertising data packages as being 'unlimited' when they clearly have hard-caps in place, i can see this landing them in hot water.
not at all. since the 14th jan on my iphone, i have used 600mb. iphone and nexus have different APN's onto the network, hence why they have a 1gb allowance. we wont loose loads of customers, its always been 500MB for phones, and when people have abused it by tethering we have charged. the average user, does not use over 500mb a month. i worked in billing for a brief period, and never got complaints about it. the word unlimited is used for advertsing, ofcom believe that the word unlimited can be used in contexts where the avergae user wont go over a set limit, thus we can use unlimited, same as other companys.
i suggest using a phone and seeing how much data you use in a month before complaining. ull be surprised
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Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
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quote:
Originally posted by bubble
quote:
Originally posted by noshua
Basically they're saying "we bought the iphone and now we can't handle it's data throughput"
what a load od BS.
all networks can apply a limit on data, the reason why this has had to happen, is because people were using a MOBILE INTERNET service incorrectly and tethering phones and using them as modems. this has been enforced as a result of people abusing the internet.
we never charged if people went over 500mb, but greedy customers made this happen
So either Vodafone hasn't got the network to handle the throughput or they haven't got the bandwidth...
A lot of people are pissed that they've been sold contracts on the basis of a 500mb FUP or 'unlimited' as Voda advertise, but it's just a piss taker that Voda are setting the hard cap far too low at 500mb as clearly a lot of customers will have to fork out the extra. If they set it at 1GB, which is far more reasonable, then i think Voda wouldn't be getting as much shit as they are. By setting it at a pathetic 500mb, it just makes you wonder if Voda have the network to deal with bandwidth or whether they're doing it to make a 'quick buck'.
And it's another blow to the customer when they find out that the iPhone and Nexus get special treatment (it seems Voda aren't too sure why either) and a further kick to the Desire customers when they find out that a lot of them don't have a certain data plan, meaning that they'll be paying 50p per 25mb over the 500mb limit, instead of £5 per 500mb over the limit.
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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of course the bandwith is there, or we would have had network crashes like o2 did. its simply a tool to stop people abusing and taking advantage of a free service! how is 500mb pathetic? for mobile browsing its a huge amount. your asuming everyone is going to go over 500mb, but what are you basing this on? our retention department would notice people leaving us due to a fair use policy being applied. fact is, people arent using over 500mb, and if they are, then its through tethering.
its just another example of people moaning because they think they are bein hard done by! the reality is, that since 2008 it has been 500mb, prior to that it was 120mb. its just now, we are saying that if it is abused, you will get charged. by using the devices correctly, people wont get charged, so not really an issue.
we just live in a nanny state where people like to moan and complain. personally, getting even 500mb on a contract is good. look at the states, they get charged something ridiculous like $35 for 100mb.
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Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
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quote:
Originally posted by bubble
not at all. since the 14th jan on my iphone, i have used 600mb.
Lucky for you, but i can clear 20/30mb a day just from a bit of browsing, emails and a few podcasts.
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
iphone and nexus have different APN's onto the network, hence why they have a 1gb allowance.
Still doesn't explain the 1GB limit, why not blanket it all at 500mb/1GB? What makes the iPhone and Nexus so special to warrant a higher limit especially when you sell phones like the Desire which are pretty much identical?
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
we wont loose loads of customers, its always been 500MB for phones, and when people have abused it by tethering we have charged.
I think you should read the forums, plenty of people (and it's only a tiny number of the customers that know about this yet) are willing to leave over the this although no doubt Voda will try and pull a fast one with the 7.2(?) clause.
It's always been a 500mb Fair Usuage Policy, which is guidance NOT a hard limit. What Vodafone are now putting in place is a hard-limit and will see a lot of people being charged extra.
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
the average user, does not use over 500mb a month. i worked in billing for a brief period, and never got complaints about it.
Clearly the uproar suggests otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
the word unlimited is used for advertsing, ofcom believe that the word unlimited can be used in contexts where the avergae user wont go over a set limit, thus we can use unlimited, same as other companys.
it's always been a dodgy area for Companies to use the word unlimited, but it's always been used with FUP's. Clearly this won't be the case with Vodafone's data plans which will be set with a hard-limit at 500mb (or 1GB for iPhone/Nexus), so selling it as unlimited will be false advertising.
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
i suggest using a phone and seeing how much data you use in a month before complaining. ull be surprised
Why would i be surprised?  I do use a phone, i know exactly how much data i use a month and on average it's more than 500mb.
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oceansoul
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Registered: 19th Jun 06
Location: Sunbury, Surrey
User status: Offline
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I've used 564mb since April 24th on my desire  that's Jus browsing, dling apps, bit of YouTube etc
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Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by bubble
of course the bandwith is there, or we would have had network crashes like o2 did. its simply a tool to stop people abusing and taking advantage of a free service! how is 500mb pathetic? for mobile browsing its a huge amount. your asuming everyone is going to go over 500mb, but what are you basing this on? our retention department would notice people leaving us due to a fair use policy being applied. fact is, people arent using over 500mb, and if they are, then its through tethering.
its just another example of people moaning because they think they are bein hard done by! the reality is, that since 2008 it has been 500mb, prior to that it was 120mb. its just now, we are saying that if it is abused, you will get charged. by using the devices correctly, people wont get charged, so not really an issue.
we just live in a nanny state where people like to moan and complain. personally, getting even 500mb on a contract is good. look at the states, they get charged something ridiculous like $35 for 100mb.
500MB is pathetic! I listen to a fair amount of podcasts, if i grab one of the Radio 1 podcasts it's 19MB and if i did that every day i'd be over the limit without any other data usage. Another example is using something like Google Maps. I've worked out it's roughly 1MB (nearer 2MB at street level) per mile. If i do a few trips up north then i can easily burn 500MB. You also have apps like Spotify and Youtube which will happily eat data as well.
And i'm not assuming anything, you clearly haven't read the forums (even your own forum is full of posts about this, although Voda staff are doing wonders of deleting a lot of it). Yes there are a few people just pissed because they can be but a majority of the backlash is from genuine customers who don't take the piss downloading Gigs upon Gigs or tether, but do go over the 500mb limit by 10/20mb on a monthly basis just from normal use.
You also don't seem to understand the difference between a FUP limit, which Voda have been running for the last few years, and a hard-limit, which Voda is putting in place. FUPs have leeway, a hard-limit doesn't.
And if Vodafone have the network and backend bandwidth to deal with it, then why haven't they set it to something more reasonable, like 1GB? If anyone is tethering then it'll be GBs not MBs! And although bandwidth isn't cheap (roughly £1 per GB, i imagine it's a few pennies more for networks though) in the UK, i can't see an extra 500mb making much difference to the grand scale of things.
Also at the moment only a tiny portion of your Vodafone's customer base know about this, it'll be different when Vodafone text (texting seems to be Vodafones normal method of contact) everyone to let them know this is taking place from the 1st June.
To be honest, i'm not sure why i'm giving a shit about this as i'm not a Vodafone customer I'm happy as larry on my FUP with O2 
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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I won't be switching over to vodafone then, they nearly had a new customer.
Bubble, you would say 5meg a month was enough if they changed the limit to that.
We know you work for them, they don't pay you more for talking shit on here though do they?
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Edd
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Registered: 8th Nov 04
Location: Glasgow
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this is because of all the fuckwits tethering like fuck
ruining it for everyone else, i dont use my phone at work and when im home im normally on the laptop or connected via wifi so limits arent a great concern to me and thankfully im true unlimited on orange but i can see all networks trying to move to this
[Edited on 09-05-2010 by Edd]
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noshua
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Registered: 19th Nov 08
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quote:
Originally posted by DomTo be honest, i'm not sure why i'm giving a shit about this as i'm not a Vodafone customer I'm happy as larry on my FUP with O2
bubble - 500MB is a large amount for a mobile customer - I've just worked out my sent/received and on average since I've had my phone I've done 225MB a month, quite a lot considering when I'm at home I use my wireless. I can easily see someone going over this - but if someone is going over by a ridiculous amount (or using GBs a month rather than MBs), wouldn't it make sense to contact these customers directly - rather than punishing the whole customer base?
As Dom said, people who haven't ever gone over their limit, and probably never will, it won't affect - but the people who occasionally go over their limit no longer have an option but to fork out an extortionate amount for them doing so.
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ed
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Registered: 10th Sep 03
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500mb is still tonnes for your mobile. I use last.fm nearly every day over 3G and I've barely even done 2gb in 18 months on my phone.
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Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
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quote:
Originally posted by ed
500mb is still tonnes for your mobile. I use last.fm nearly every day over 3G and I've barely even done 2gb in 18 months on my phone.
Isn't Last.fm a 64kbit AAC stream? An hours usage is ~28MB, you use ~113MB a month roughly, so you stream Last.fm for less than 4hours a month if my maths is correct I wouldn't even have said that's dabbling.
Compare that to someone who might stream spotify for an hour a day commuting into work, that's ~1.5GBs a month (160kbit stream, weekdays only).
I'm still confussed how people think 500MB monthly usage (~16MB a day!) is a lot for day to day use on a smartphone! I still don't think 1GB usage is extreme, but it's certainly reasonable!
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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dom i like your replies.
but a couple of things.
podcasts cannot be downloaded over 3g as they tend to be over 10mb, so can only use wi-fi.
the uproar you talk about is a forum i take it of people complaining? so this is representative of the entirity of customers? i dont think so.
do you really think that one of the biggest global companies will cut its nose of in order to spite their face??
a 500mb fair use policy is fair. at the end of the day , if you are using 30mb a day, then prepare to pay for that. by charging for data, it doesnt indicate a network is struggling with bandwith or latency, it means that it is costing a lot of money, cost that if the consumer wants a service, they must pay for.
noshua-when a customer trend is identified which would be indicative of going over a FUP, customers do get texts and letters to warn them, if a few months passes and they are still hammering it, its deemed fair to charge them.
dom-u mention that last.fm streams at whatever that rate is. so based on your maths, if say 1000 people a month do this 1500gbs a month that the network is using, surely people dont expect this to cost nothing?
one more thing noshua-people who will be going over-they can pay more for more data-but the UK customers feel they should get it free!!
i still am a bit unsure why this is causing an uproar-its always been this way. if you use something more than is a guidance you pay for it.
it says unlimited drink refills in pizza hut, but they stop you at 4.
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Joe
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Registered: 20th Jun 04
Location: Hesketh Bank, Lancashire
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Bubble in Vodafone brainwashed shocker 
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bubble
Member
Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Joe
Bubble in Vodafone brainwashed shocker
im brainwashed that u pay for what you use?
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Dom
Member
Registered: 13th Sep 03
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quote:
Originally posted by bubble
dom i like your replies.
but a couple of things.
I like yours too, at least it shows everyone at Vodafone pedals the same BS! 
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
podcasts cannot be downloaded over 3g as they tend to be over 10mb, so can only use wi-fi.
 You're probably thinking iPhones using iTunes. You can happily download the Radio 1 podcasts using 3G, just browse to the link via the browser. Never had issues with Android doing this.
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
the uproar you talk about is a forum i take it of people complaining? so this is representative of the entirety of customers? i dont think so.
Forums and websites, plural! And no it's not a representative of the entire Vodafone customer base, i've never said it was. What i have said is that a very tiny percentage of your customers CURRENTLY know about this and there is uproar. When you push out your text message explaining this to all of your customers in a few weeks, it'll kick off.
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
do you really think that one of the biggest global companies will cut its nose of in order to spite their face??
No but i expect 'one of the biggest global companies' to pull it's face out of it's arse and realise what's reasonable and what's not especially when it comes to the Internet and data usage. It clearly shows that Vodafone (and others) clearly haven't got a clue when it comes to this - no doubt they still believe we use 5.5" floppies and 286 PC's 
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
a 500mb fair use policy is fair. at the end of the day , if you are using 30mb a day, then prepare to pay for that. by charging for data, it doesnt indicate a network is struggling with bandwidth or latency, it means that it is costing a lot of money, cost that if the consumer wants a service, they must pay for.
You again seem to fail to understand the difference between a FUP and a hard-limit. You CURRENTLY have a FUP usage of 500mb, that means that it is a guidance to stick to 500mb. It is not forced and you're very unlikely to get penalised if you go over the 500mb FUP by 100/200mb one month.
What Vodafone is planning is to introduce is a hard-force-limit, where someone going over the 500mb by a MB will result in you getting charged £5!
How the hell can Vodafone think that's reasonable?!
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
You mention that last.fm streams at whatever that rate is. so based on your maths, if say 1000 people a month do this 1500gbs a month that the network is using, surely people dont expect this to cost nothing?
1.5TB is nothing in the grand scale of things and no i don't expect Vodafone to just dish it out, i know how much bandwidth costs and it's not cheap in the UK. But to charge people £5 per 500mb (and that's if you're on a data plan, some people are getting charged £10 per 500mb) is simply a con, how can Vodafone believe this is reasonable?!?
And if Vodafone were truly targeting 'illegal' tetherers, then this hard-limit would be set to something more reasonable like 1GB, where it wouldn't affect your average loyal customer but only those that really take piss.
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
i still am a bit unsure why this is causing an uproar-its always been this way. if you use something more than is a guidance you pay for it.
Again, it's CURRENTLY a fair usage policy, not a force hard-limit which is what Vodafone are putting in place.
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
it says unlimited drink refills in pizza hut, but they stop you at 4.
Can think of a few companies like this
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Marc
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Registered: 11th Aug 02
Location: York
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by bubble
it says unlimited drink refills in pizza hut, but they stop you at 4.
Do they
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bubble
Member
Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
User status: Offline
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ok, i completely understand what you are saying.
BUT
in the terms of the contract, since day one of it being 500mb, it has always said we have the right to charge if going over that figure. so nothing has changed, apart from now on it seems we will be charging if people use more than 500mb.
its interesting to point out, that we can deem how many of our customers use what data, so surely, to enforce this, the powers that be will have already calculated how many people will leave us due to this. chances are, that it will be cheaper to loose customers who cost us more, rather than keep them on and for us to lose out.
it will be very interesting to see just where these customers go, when o2 and orange follow suit, and start charging the moment their customers hit their new 500mb hard limits.
if a customer can show that their bill has increased by more than 10% due to being charged for going over, they can cancel their contract. but remember if someone is using 400mb a month, then the next month they use over 500mb and get charged, they cant cancel as historically we can see every last bit of internet usage.
ultimately it comes down to the uk customer. its all want want want. so as a company we have always had a 500mb limit, which we have always said we can reserve the right to charge if someone goes over that figure. so for years, people have become complacent with getting loads and paying nothing. so they should be grateful if they have gone over and not being charged.
consider yourselves lucky that you live in the uk, check the data charges for usa, europe etc. we have it easy.
people will whinge about the cost of fuel, but will pay for it because they need it.
if people want to use loads of data on a mobile phone-pay for it?
nobody is making people listen to the radio 24/7 or to stream things. customers choose to do this.
i have a screenshot here of my phone, 640mb since january the 14th, my facebook, im buddy, ping, are open all day. i use the google maps, a few times tbf. every weekend ill watch clips on youtube. so i am personally averaging roughly 5mb day, and i seem to use my web a LOT. i would expect pay more if was using more. but thats just me i suppose.
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bubble
Member
Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
quote:
Originally posted by bubble
it says unlimited drink refills in pizza hut, but they stop you at 4.
Do they
ours in scummy stoke does yeh
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